Proper Training Needed!

[Lily Kerns]

Originally Posted by gbrandwood

Am I the only one thinking this is 50% bad AND 50% funny? Sure, as officers they should be properly trained for use out on the street, but this looks like a bit of a lark behind the scenes. The officers seem to be having fun anyhow.

And for the training advice, I would just add that the Seg should be in turtle mode (so it doesn't turn so quick).

I agree that it may have seemed funny at the time to those watching...and possibly to those involved. I can't see that publishing it for others to laugh at is appropriate. One of our TV news shows apparently showed it too.

And respectfully, I must disagree on the turtle mode unless you have someone who is likely to overdo the training instructions. I find the seg much easier to control out of turtle mode and that teaching fingertip turning first resolves having it turn too quickly. Trainer assessment of the student is always needed...

[dale@thecoys.net]

Originally Posted by Lily Kerns

And respectfully, I must disagree on the turtle mode unless you have someone who is likely to overdo the training instructions. I find the seg much easier to control out of turtle mode and that teaching fingertip turning first resolves having it turn too quickly. Trainer assessment of the student is always needed...

I absolutely agree with that. In my experience, for the vast majority of learners, turtle mode is not useful.

[KSagal]

The turtle setting is debatable...

I have done many hundreds and maybe more demos in the decade and some years more since I first got my segway...

I used to set it to black speed, or turtle mode as a regular function of the demo, but have not done so in years.

It has not affected the demos at all to do them at full speed, as the demo does not go to full speed when I do it anyway.

Turtle or not, you can go very slow, and turn very slow. Do what I tell you, and the machine will be moving slowly. Do not do what I tell you, and you can still hurt yourself (or have me take the segway away) in turtle mode or not.

HOWEVER, I have said a time or two that I was putting it in turtle mode, if the novice was particularly tentative or apprehensive if they could do the demo without hurting themselves. If it will make the novice feel better, I may put it in turtle, or at least indicate that I will.

Some (many of my demos) are a result of my riding into an area on the segway, and I often do that fairly quickly, and with smooth and somewhat experienced moves. Some interested folks may take a demo, but say that they could never do what I do, or could never use the machine as I just did. In that case, I may volunteer the turtle mode to calm and relax them.

One other story... Very much true.

I had the honor several years ago to train some injured military folks, with the great folks at Segs 4 Vets.

One student saw the turtle mode, which was the standard at the time, but kept turning it off. When I had the opportunity to speak with this honorable fine gentleman warrior, he explained that he was happy to have been afforded the opportunity to have the segway, and did not want to disrespect anyone's rules, but he did not want to learn how to segway on any setting that was identified as a 'turtle'.

He was respectful, but seemed determined, so we went to a different floor of the parking garage we happened to be doing the training in. He did not want to be a distraction, nor cause any problems. (there was a television crew filming on the main training floor)

We went down two levels, he learned how to handle the segway at full speed, and was aggressively and very competently handling the segway in a very short time. We were doing ramps, uneven surfaces, backing up and turning in reverse, and several other uneven and difficult surfaces within minutes. We were doing slalom and other maneuvers moments later, all at full speed, frequently in speed limiter push back...

He explained to me that he planned to be the first pilot to be allowed back into flying combat helicopter duty, with an artificial leg.

I do not know if he was successful or not, but he was good on that segway right away, and I got the impression that he was a force to be reconned with. I believed he was sincere in his plan, and I surely was not going to force the 'turtle' mode onto him.

[Gihgehls]

I'm with Karl. I find the turtle mode to be somewhat more risky, both due to turn rate isn't coupled as closely to the rider's lean, and because the early speed-limiter reaction causes more fright and "jump-offs" than if the Segway went a little faster.

[gbrandwood]

Most of my experience training people comes from when I ran my Segway tour business. Of course, I 'trained' people before this (and since) as most Segway owners know, it's hard to own one without other people wanting to have a go.

Upon turning Turtle mode off, lots of people would say to me "it's much easier to control". And I agree - the extra responsiveness is indeed very much a benefit.

But, Turtle mode is my default. And here is why:

It is what Segway recommends. The setting has existed on the Gen1 and continues to be a feature for all Gen2s. Sure, it has been called lots of things - and the term 'Turtle mode' might unfavourable to some - but whatever it is called, it offers several safety features - NOT enjoyment features, not 'it feels better' features - safety features. Designed by the people who created the Segway to make it easier to learn, safer to learn, and to make incidents less likely to occur and thus reduce liability. My personal preference for quicker turning, faster speeds etc., does not top-trump the need for safety in the very beginning. Now, that said, all of my training is tailored. As a trainer you know when people 'get it'. So, for some people it was a few minutes on turtle then onto regular mode. For others it would be longer or maybe less - but everyone would start on Turtle. And the environment of the training is just as important. Red key used to be described as for use in "wide open spaces", yellow for sidewalk and black for CEOs LOL (old Gen1 key colours) - and everyone would wear a helmet too... but lets not revive that debate

Do Segways continue to ship with their InfoKeys 'stuck' in Turtle mode?

This is what the current manual says about 'Beginner mode':

Beginner Setting Mount/Dismount Feature
The Segway PT LeanSteer technology was designed to provide responsive steering. The software includes a feature to help new riders easily learn how to mount and dismount the PT without unintentionally initiating a turn. When the PT is in Beginner Setting and the rider has less than two of the four Rider Detect Sensors (see "Rider Detect Sensors," p. 33) engaged, and the PT is moving neither forward or backward, the sensitivity of the LeanSteer frame is 15% of normal operation. When the PT is in Beginner Setting and the rider has two feet on the PT, and the PT is moving neither forward or backward, the sensitivity of the LeanSteer frame is 55% of normal operation. As the PT's speed increases, the sensitivity of the LeanSteer frame is gradually increased.

I was going to liken it to learning to ride on a 125cc motorcycle versus a 600cc motorcycle but I guess that it stretching things too far.

We are all free to train people how we see fit - and we are all responsible for those actions. I don't have an issue with people going 'red key' straight off - but that approach is not for me. The slower turning and reduced speed - both together - make Turtle mode the mode I will always start my training in.

[KSagal]

One other consideration:

When I train for someone else, I use their rules. I did take the 'train the trainer' course, way back when Segway would train people to be their trainers prior to the dealer network. They wanted all training on Black Key, or what turned into turtle key.

When I trained for Segs - 4 - Vets, again, I used their rules. At that time, and I have no reason to believe it has changed, they start everyone on Turtle mode.
(I spoke of the one exception, and how we moved away from view because of it)

I have the advantage of training one person at a time, very hands on. I have one segway currently, and if I am gliding somewhere, and wind up doing a training, I am standing there during that training. Once they get good enough to glide away from me, I am still standing there. I have nothing better to do till I get my segway back, so I can and do stay focused on that novice.

If a person is training for a tour, or for a group, where there may be a lot of segways being used for training at the same time, and attentions are more likely to be split, the company policy of the turtle is not such a bad idea.

Again, I emphasize, you can go slow outside of turtle mode. You can do everything exactly like turtle mode when not in it, but you cannot do everything like full speed while in turtle mode.

So, like has been previously stated, while I do not use the turtle for my personal trainings, I have no problem with using it, and when in the appropriate environment, would use it without reservation.

[gbrandwood]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Again, I emphasize, you can go slow outside of turtle mode. You can do everything exactly like turtle mode when not in it, but you cannot do everything like full speed while in turtle mode.

You can go just as slow outside of turtle mode, sure. However, the handling characteristics are different - and that is for a reason. And that reason is to make it safer for beginners.

I no longer run tours but I will continue to train people in turtle mode. The main reason being that people can get into trouble faster outside of turtle mode. The machine can go faster, the machine can turn faster. I have seen people who, despite appearing to have 'got it' when closely supervised, suddenly lose it when out of reach. Sure, you might be at their side and within arms reach so you can step-in. If you are quick enough and able enough then you can stop problems before they turn nasty.

It could be argued that not being in turtle mode allows people to get out of trouble more quickly. And this might be true under certain circumstances - but most issues I have seen causing problems for riders are the mistakes they make themselves: going too fast or turning too fast and not leaning correctly - putting themselves in danger. Or hitting something. At slower speeds all of these things are less of a problem. And if they do need to step off because they can't avoid something quickly enough, stepping off at 6MPH is better than at 12.5MPH when the rider suddenly forgets how to brake and is sticking their backside out rather than leaning back

The other reason I'll continue to use turtle mode for beginners is that getting on and off is easier; the Segway is just more docile. Sure, you can compensate when they are in front of you by holding the handlebars - and I'd do this even in turtle mode. Certainly, practicing getting on and off together is the way to go. But letting someone do it themselves for the first time in turtle mode, always seemed to yield better results for me. I can't think why regular mode offers any benefit here.

Actually, thinking back to some tours, I would always start in turtle mode, practice in turtle mode, then progress to regular mode. However, following some practice/review in this regular mode, there were a few times when I changed the settings back - or even kept it in regular mode but knocked the speed down a little. Possibly for younger or older riders. Quite often with their appreciation.

Something which is probably more applicable to formal training than people who just have a very quick go, is the speed limiter. I like how turtle mode allows people to hit the speed limiter sooner - so they can feel it and understand it. I wouldn't want the first time someone feels the speed limiter to be at 12.5MPH.

But everyone is different (both trainee and trainer) and some trainers exert better control over trainees than others and some trainees are more receptive than others. I think we all agree that we need to use our best judgement and that tailoring each instance of training is the best approach, regardless of the mode. Liability is a major concern for me so perhaps I am overly cautious. I have seen what happens when people are poorly trained and I have seen first-hand what happens when people are well trained but choose not to follow that training. Ouch!

Karl, I wish I could have gone to the factory at the very start to experience time with the original team. I am very envious of those that did.

[Gihgehls]

The special training features do sound nice. My only concern is that because so much of riding a segway is done with your nervous system and not with your mind, that one can get too familiar with the characteristics of turtle mode, and then be in for a potentially nasty surprise when the Segway acts like a race horse instead of the mule he/she was familiar with. My opinion is that since you begin forming new neural pathways within seconds of stepping on a PT, it is beneficial to have those first connections be the "final," correct ones. Just my two cents.

[rwoynaro]

Originally Posted by Gihgehls

The special training features do sound nice. My only concern is that because so much of riding a segway is done with your nervous system and not with your mind, that one can get too familiar with the characteristics of turtle mode, and then be in for a potentially nasty surprise when the Segway acts like a race horse instead of the mule he/she was familiar with. My opinion is that since you begin forming new neural pathways within seconds of stepping on a PT, it is beneficial to have those first connections be the "final," correct ones. Just my two cents.

It can be a bit of a shock when you are used to one set of characteristics and the seg responds differently. I have accidentally engaged turtle mode by bumping the info key unwittingly, and for a few seconds when I started to glide, I was pretty confused as to it's un-responsiveness. It would definately have been worse if I accidentally went for normal slow to much faster that I was not familiar with. Its kind of amazing how much we just instinctively glide rather than having to operate it thru conscious actions. What an amazing machine alright.

[MaddFinn]

As a former training manager for Segway, we had a specific training program and curriculum for military and police personnel, sure looks like that program has ceased to exist lol.