SegwayChat
Home . Photos . Old Gallery

Go Back   SegwayChat > Other Topics > General Discussion

Notices

General Discussion Miscellaneous topics and for general social, non-Segway discussions.

Old 05-21-2015, 12:38 AM   #1
Lily Kerns
Member
Lily Kerns will become famous soon enoughLily Kerns will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SW Missouri, near Springfield
Posts: 875
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default EPAMD = Segway and ???

does anyone have any definitive information on the legal status of Segway clones (1-2-3 wheeled devices using similar technology) when the issue of what is covered by state EPAMD laws comes up?

I'm preparing to confront Missouri's Department of Conservation again (this time hopefully in person) on their blatantly illegal rules regarding use of segs by the disabled. (They now classify "Hoverrounds and mobility scooters" along with Segways as EPAMDs requiring a permit.) The issue of their compliance with state EPAMD law is also likely to come up and I'd like to give them a heads up on this question...
__________________
Lily Kerns
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faculty:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Lily Kerns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 08:28 PM   #2
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,346 (SuperPoster!)
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Kerns View Post
does anyone have any definitive information on the legal status of Segway clones (1-2-3 wheeled devices using similar technology) when the issue of what is covered by state EPAMD laws comes up?

I'm preparing to confront Missouri's Department of Conservation again (this time hopefully in person) on their blatantly illegal rules regarding use of segs by the disabled. (They now classify "Hoverrounds and mobility scooters" along with Segways as EPAMDs requiring a permit.) The issue of their compliance with state EPAMD law is also likely to come up and I'd like to give them a heads up on this question...
I suspect that if it looks like a segway they will think it a segway, even if you educate them. A Segway is a brand name, it is not a definition of a device. An EPAMD is a definition of a device, so if they want to use that term, it is already defined in such a way that the ninebot already fits it. I believe it deals with two non tandem wheels, self balancing, made for one person, less than 25 inches wide, etc, and all that fits both the i2 and the ninebot.

Good luck. Perhaps some more familiar with making entities comply with the federal and other mandates will chime in with more or better data...

Keep up the good fight.
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 10:32 PM   #3
JohnM
Senior Member
JohnM is a glorious beacon of lightJohnM is a glorious beacon of lightJohnM is a glorious beacon of lightJohnM is a glorious beacon of lightJohnM is a glorious beacon of light
 
JohnM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ManchVegas, NH
Posts: 2,145
5 yr Member
Default

FWIF,
http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/st...700002051.HTML
__________________
JohnM
Anything worth doing for 2 hours is 10 times more worthwhile if done for 20 hours.
RUSA #235
UMCA #
3877

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

JohnM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 11:39 PM   #4
therealzam
Junior Member
therealzam is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: W Hollywood, CA
Posts: 30
5 yr Member
Default EPAMD Rules

While EPAMD and Segway have been used interchangeably by many, most states and the Fed impose the following key restrictions on what constitutes one:
  • two non-tandem wheels
  • max speed somewhere between 25 and 12.5 mph
  • with that generally conforms to that of a hover round or 'fatty' wheelchair
  • designed for one user
  • sometimes you'll see an HP limit which is usually 3
  • the device must be self-ballancing
  • often you'll see a reference to movement being controlled by leaning
Basically, the rules were created for Segways but had to be made without referring to the brand, thus a need for a non-pattented term was created and EPAMD has become the consensus.

Almost all Segway clones are EPAMD devices and if they don't quite meet the definition a court will likely determin that the other device conforms with the spirit of the definition.
therealzam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 01:26 AM   #5
Lily Kerns
Member
Lily Kerns will become famous soon enoughLily Kerns will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SW Missouri, near Springfield
Posts: 875
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
I suspect that if it looks like a segway they will think it a segway, even if you educate them. A Segway is a brand name, it is not a definition of a device. An EPAMD is a definition of a device, so if they want to use that term, it is already defined in such a way that the ninebot already fits it. I believe it deals with two non tandem wheels, self balancing, made for one person, less than 25 inches wide, etc, and all that fits both the i2 and the ninebot.

Good luck. Perhaps some more familiar with making entities comply with the federal and other mandates will chime in with more or better data...

Keep up the good fight.
Thanks, Karl. You've made the point I was hoping to hear.

But that doesn't make it any easier for the shop owner or dept of Conservation or any one else when someone shows up on a "skateboard" or "unicycle" claiming it is their mobility device and that because it uses Segway technology it should be considered an EPAMD and comes under the ADAs OPDMD classification. There will eventually have to be some clarification I would guess.... Without some safety studies to back it up, I think it would be difficult to justify their claim as a mobility device.

Just trying to think ahead for potential problem areas...
__________________
Lily Kerns
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faculty:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Lily Kerns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 11:08 AM   #6
airdale
Member
airdale is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Arizona
Posts: 443
3 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Kerns View Post
"skateboard" or "unicycle"

Just trying to think ahead for potential problem areas...
Those are not self balancing...

I think using an organization like Segs for Vets should really carry weight?!!!!
airdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2015, 01:54 PM   #7
MuttonChops
Member
MuttonChops is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bothell, WA U.S.A.
Posts: 139
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default This & That

EPAMD.

The Missouri Revised Statues Section 307.205.1 (see JohnM link) is very clear on the definition and is the basic definition Segway Inc worked out with most states back in the beginning. Two wheel Segway like machines are EPAMD.
Side note: Washington state legislature has a 2015 update to our regulations that will include single wheel self-balancing machines as EPAMD. “self-balancing device with one wheel designed to transport only one person by an electric propulsion system”

Possible Data to Aid Your Cause.

USDoT 2004 summary 'Characteristics of Emerging Road and Trail Users and Their Safety' covers basic trail design features (width, line-of-sight, crossing, etc) and has this statement on Segway User Characteristics.
Based on the performance of the five Segways evaluated in the study, a Segway user would not be the critical user for any of the design criteria evaluated.
- Many characteristics of Segway users are comparable to those of other emerging trail users.
- Compared to most other users, Segway users had higher eye heights, shorter lengths, shorter braking distances, and faster deceleration rates, and required the least space to make a three-point turn.

USDoT 2005 Guidance Statement on 'USE OF “SEGWAYs” ON TRANSPORTATION VEHICLES' provides some common language information on how the ADA rules should be read, for example:
Individuals who do not use wheelchairs commonly use the lift together with their non-wheelchair mobility devices, such as canes, crutches or walkers. Under this provision, an individual with a disability who uses a Segway as a mobility device must be permitted to use the lift.

There are also several (early Segway days) independent studies that all tend to conclude Segway will stop faster, respond faster, are smaller, and are far less dangerous to pedestrians than bicycles on mixed use paths.

Enjoy,
Craig approaching 8,300 miles
Attached Files
File Type: pdf USDOT Segway Guidance.pdf (15.7 KB, 2 views)
File Type: pdf USG_roads_tech_brief_trails.pdf (77.1 KB, 4 views)
File Type: pdf IndependentStudies.pdf (43.5 KB, 1 views)
MuttonChops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2015, 06:30 PM   #8
QuadSquad
Member
QuadSquad is a splendid one to beholdQuadSquad is a splendid one to beholdQuadSquad is a splendid one to beholdQuadSquad is a splendid one to beholdQuadSquad is a splendid one to beholdQuadSquad is a splendid one to beholdQuadSquad is a splendid one to behold
 
QuadSquad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA.
Posts: 479
5 yr Member
Default Where are you being challenged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Kerns View Post
does anyone have any definitive information on the legal status of Segway clones (1-2-3 wheeled devices using similar technology) when the issue of what is covered by state EPAMD laws comes up?

I'm preparing to confront Missouri's Department of Conservation again (this time hopefully in person) on their blatantly illegal rules regarding use of segs by the disabled. (They now classify "Hoverrounds and mobility scooters" along with Segways as EPAMDs requiring a permit.) The issue of their compliance with state EPAMD law is also likely to come up and I'd like to give them a heads up on this question...
Lily, where are you specifically being challenged? I was led to believe last fall by the MDC General Counsel that while they were working on revising their regulations to comply with the ADA revisions that in the meantime she'd try to make sure those with disabilities using Segways wouldn't be denied access.
QuadSquad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2015, 08:07 PM   #9
Lily Kerns
Member
Lily Kerns will become famous soon enoughLily Kerns will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SW Missouri, near Springfield
Posts: 875
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
I suspect that if it looks like a segway they will think it a segway, even if you educate them. A Segway is a brand name, it is not a definition of a device. An EPAMD is a definition of a device, so if they want to use that term, it is already defined in such a way that the ninebot already fits it. I believe it deals with two non tandem wheels, self balancing, made for one person, less than 25 inches wide, etc, and all that fits both the i2 and the ninebot.

Good luck. Perhaps some more familiar with making entities comply with the federal and other mandates will chime in with more or better data...

Keep up the good fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadSquad View Post
Lily, where are you specifically being challenged? I was led to believe last fall by the MDC General Counsel that while they were working on revising their regulations to comply with the ADA revisions that in the meantime she'd try to make sure those with disabilities using Segways wouldn't be denied access.
I was told last fall by their counsel that hopefully they would do away with the permit requirement by the end of the year. She also gave me that same assurance of working to see that no one was denied. I have not had any contact with other seg users since then (I don't know of any others I this area.)

However I just requested the latest rules, etc from the MDC and they have changed nothing (except to add classifying mobility scooters as EPAMDs). My traveling has been a bit limited for the last few months and I have not been anywhere that I have been challenged by the MDC. However, anyone searching for information from their web site would find only a single mention of segways-- a statement that the Springfield Nature Center will allow segs but a permit is required. A request to the keeper of records (if you manage to locate that link) will get the same information I just requested.

I've been dealing with them for more than six years now. In the beginning I was told that they had no policy (except no way, Jose!) and was notified 10 months later that they had a policy...absolutely no segs on any MDC property! My protests finally got acknowledgement that I could use their restrooms, roads and parking lots...

I notified them as soon as ADA 2010 information was available, giving them a year and 8 months to comply .. And as usual nothing has happened. Besides the illegal items in their permit process, the permit system itself means that the minute a doctor prescribes a seg, the MDC is assuming that person is less intelligent, capable and responsible (and needs to be informed of rules, etc.) than they would be if they went back to their car and swapped their seg for a wheelchair -- in which case no permit could be required. That is not a device safety issue for which they could legally regulate their use.

After more than six years, my patience has run out. I intend to request permission to appear at their July meeting. (And if anyone is wanting to do that on a seg based issue , good luck in figuring to how to submit your request! Try contacting their general counsel...!) If I get no satisfaction, I am considering filing a formal complaint and requesting a small compensatory penalty and a punitive penalty in the form of paying the complete cost of providing a half dozen Segways for Segs4Vets....

Comments? Can you tell I am frustrated? When I got into this, I had no intention--or desire--to become a disability advocate....
__________________
Lily Kerns
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faculty:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Lily Kerns; 05-23-2015 at 08:12 PM..
Lily Kerns is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:33 PM.
Copyright © 2002-2017 SegwayChat.org.
All rights reserved. Not affiliated with Segway Inc.

FreshBlue vBulletin skin by
VayaDesign
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SegwayChat Archive