SegwayChat
Home . Photos . Old Gallery

Go Back   SegwayChat > Other Topics > General Discussion

Notices

General Discussion Miscellaneous topics and for general social, non-Segway discussions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2015, 09:16 PM   #11
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,346 (SuperPoster!)
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Kerns View Post
LOL. I think we've probably carried this far enough toward the useless/ridiculous....

The 11 cows I referred to were expensive breeding stock. Standing under a tree. In the same storm, a house was hit and burned. Nothing to fool around with!

Moral of the story, I guess is to err on the side of caution...

BTW in the same spirit as the rest of this conversation and because things have been a bit dull around this forum, would anyone care to provide advice on how to manage an open umbrella while riding a Segway? One with the wind openings near the top might be more manageable.... A wind from your backside might be useful (if you can see around the umbrella). How would that affect the seg's maximum speed? Otherwise you are creating your own wind which would act as a brake.....

Forgive Me!
If you tilt the umbrella over your shoulder, behind your head, you will have a wind brake. As you said, if you hold it tilted forward, with a tail wind, you will have a spinnaker type sail. One will hurt your progress, the other may improve it...

However, if you use a clear bubble type umbrella, with your head inside, and held upright, it should not overly impact your progress, as it will be relatively aerodynamic. (I believe you should still try not to tilt it too much.)



Something like this one might work...

Unfortunately, considering the beginning of this thread, you should never use this umbrella in the rain. You could use it some other times, however...
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 12:09 AM   #12
Lily Kerns
Member
Lily Kerns will become famous soon enoughLily Kerns will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SW Missouri, near Springfield
Posts: 875
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
If you tilt the umbrella over your shoulder, behind your head, you will have a wind brake. As you said, if you hold it tilted forward, with a tail wind, you will have a spinnaker type sail. One will hurt your progress, the other may improve it...

However, if you use a clear bubble type umbrella, with your head inside, and held upright, it should not overly impact your progress, as it will be relatively aerodynamic. (I believe you should still try not to tilt it too much.)



Something like this one might work...

Unfortunately, considering the beginning of this thread, you should never use this umbrella in the rain. You could use it some other times, however...
Additional problems, even if isn't a thunderstorm.... How would you equip this with wipers? And how deal with the drip blowing back against your legs?
__________________
Lily Kerns
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faculty:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Lily Kerns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 01:13 AM   #13
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,346 (SuperPoster!)
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily Kerns View Post
Additional problems, even if isn't a thunderstorm.... How would you equip this with wipers? And how deal with the drip blowing back against your legs?
If you really want to get into it, please look at this modification I added several years ago to deal with inclement weather.




This may meet you needs,.
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 11:33 AM   #14
Civicsman
Senior Member
Civicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Freedonia!
Posts: 1,645
5 yr Member
Default

I'm pretty sure that almost everyone understands the relationship between the cows struck by lightning and the points I have posted.

Lily, I understand that you have personal concerns about potential lightning strikes, and it is only fair to you that you receive the best information possible that will help you to avoid being struck, and to minimize the possibility of death or injury if you are caught in a situation.

Though it is incredibly easy to do, some people are happy to provide opinions without apparently bothering to do any research. In today's world of almost instant access to factual information, this seems unconscionable, particularly where personal safety is concerned. If necessary, do your own research and learn what real lightning researchers say about the topic

For example, the most minimal research will demonstrate I am not basing my comments about putting your feet together on my personally-observed direct evidence. In fact, I suspect that none of the posters here have personally performed any tests of lightning strikes, though I admit there is some indirect evidence that some here have been struck themselves. Although I was already aware of lightning information, I took the time to research the specific questions. However, lightning is a form of electricity, which conforms to Ohm's law as it flows through the earth. Ohm's law is very basic knowledge for every electrical engineer and technician.

In a lightning strike of the earth, Voltage (measured with respect to the backgroud "earth" potential) is greatest at the point of the impact, and that voltage dissipates through to zero through the earth over distance. (Some info says 100 feet is still dangerous for an earth strike. Look up "fulgarites" to get an idea of the distance that the power of lightning can actually melt soil).

So, if one foot is closer to the strike location than the other, one foot will be at a higher Voltage than the other, and there will be a Voltage differential across your feet. It's just like touching a ground with one hand and touching a voltage source with the other, except this is likely thousands of volts (depends on conditions). Voltage differential causes current flow through a resistance. In this case, you. In a lightning strike, the farther your feet are apart, the higher the voltage between your feet, and the higher the electrical current that will flow through your body. You get shocked, and the current can be so high that your body incurs internal burn damage. Nasty.

There are lots of articles and data about this. FEMA has safety tips, for example, but words and data may be difficult for some, so I'm posting a picture showing the appropriate position.
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/0...strated-guide/

Again, one can choose to blithely accept the overall odds of being struck (extremely low), or can choose to consider the significantly increased risks of an individual situation, such as being exposed on a Seg in a lightning storm. With real knowledge, one can make an informed decision about whether to play it safe, or to possibly contribute to next year's Darwin Awards.

Last edited by Civicsman; 05-12-2015 at 11:47 AM..
Civicsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2015, 02:39 PM   #15
Lily Kerns
Member
Lily Kerns will become famous soon enoughLily Kerns will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SW Missouri, near Springfield
Posts: 875
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
I'm pretty sure that almost everyone understands the relationship between the cows struck by lightning and the points I have posted.

Lily, I understand that you have personal concerns about potential lightning strikes, and it is only fair to you that you receive the best information possible that will help you to avoid being struck, and to minimize the possibility of death or injury if you are caught in a situation.

Though it is incredibly easy to do, some people are happy to provide opinions without apparently bothering to do any research. In today's world of almost instant access to factual information, this seems unconscionable, particularly where personal safety is concerned. If necessary, do your own research and learn what real lightning researchers say about the topic

For example, the most minimal research will demonstrate I am not basing my comments about putting your feet together on my personally-observed direct evidence. In fact, I suspect that none of the posters here have personally performed any tests of lightning strikes, though I admit there is some indirect evidence that some here have been struck themselves. Although I was already aware of lightning information, I took the time to research the specific questions. However, lightning is a form of electricity, which conforms to Ohm's law as it flows through the earth. Ohm's law is very basic knowledge for every electrical engineer and technician.

In a lightning strike of the earth, Voltage (measured with respect to the backgroud "earth" potential) is greatest at the point of the impact, and that voltage dissipates through to zero through the earth over distance. (Some info says 100 feet is still dangerous for an earth strike. Look up "fulgarites" to get an idea of the distance that the power of lightning can actually melt soil).

So, if one foot is closer to the strike location than the other, one foot will be at a higher Voltage than the other, and there will be a Voltage differential across your feet. It's just like touching a ground with one hand and touching a voltage source with the other, except this is likely thousands of volts (depends on conditions). Voltage differential causes current flow through a resistance. In this case, you. In a lightning strike, the farther your feet are apart, the higher the voltage between your feet, and the higher the electrical current that will flow through your body. You get shocked, and the current can be so high that your body incurs internal burn damage. Nasty.

There are lots of articles and data about this. FEMA has safety tips, for example, but words and data may be difficult for some, so I'm posting a picture showing the appropriate position.
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/0...strated-guide/

Again, one can choose to blithely accept the overall odds of being struck (extremely low), or can choose to consider the significantly increased risks of an individual situation, such as being exposed on a Seg in a lightning storm. With real knowledge, one can make an informed decision about whether to play it safe, or to possibly contribute to next year's Darwin Awards.
My question was both very serious and, in part, facetious so I do appreciate both sets of answers. Your information is new to me so if I ever get in a situation where I need it I will indeed remember it. Thanks.
__________________
Lily Kerns
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faculty:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Lily Kerns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2015, 09:55 PM   #16
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,346 (SuperPoster!)
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

As snarky as other posters may get, there has not been any definitive data offered in this thread. There are best guesses, that are posted as facts, but the answers offered as facts are specious, because the question is unanswerable. (unless you take your own opinion so seriously that you confuse it with fact.)

I did do the foolish thing of asking a search engine about the lightening questions posted here on this thread... The responses all offered data as fact, and each contradicted the next. There were no definitive answers that were agreed to by any consensus.

An exerpt from the first 3 sites I read significant data about surviving a lightening strike, or minimizing you likelihood of being struck is enclosed.

"In the United States, lightning strikes kill about 100 people each year and injure about 1,000, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).
FEMA estimates that your chances of being struck by lightning are now about 1 in 600,000. Over the past 100 years, the rate at which people are struck has dropped substantially, as fewer people now work outdoors on farms or ranches.
"


"By Dr. Mercola
From 2003 to 2012, nearly 350 people died from being struck by lightning in the US.1 Many more are struck by lightning and survive, as only about 10 percent of lighting-strike victims are killed (though many do suffer from serious long-term effects).
Contrary to popular belief, what you do during a lightning strike can make all the difference in the outcome, helping you to survive and potentially suffer only minor injuries.
You might think this will never happen to you, but when you consider that the Earth is struck by more than 100 lightning bolts every second,2 it doesn't sound so far-fetched, does it? If you live in the US, you have a 1 in 3,000 chance of being struck by lightning in your lifetime. Knowing what to do if it happens can save your life."


"Q: Does carrying an open umbrella during a thunderstorm increase your odds of being hit by lightning?
A: As a flash travels toward the ground from a nearby cloud, it looks for the tallest object. But it is very blind as it travels, and only searches within about a 50-yard radius at the lower end of the channel, both outward and downward. It has no preconceived idea of what it will strike when it starts out in the cloud. So lightning does not look several miles away to the side during its downward travel to find a hill, a tower, building, or umbrella that is just a little taller than what is at its lower end within 50 yards.
The flash that is already going to hit nearby is the one to worry about. Within that range, you don't want to be the tallest object or attached to it. If you're holding an umbrella in an area surrounded by taller buildings, it's not so bad. But if you are already the only tall object within 50 yards, then it doesn't matter much what you are holding.
(Answered by: Ron Holle, research meteorologist, NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory, Norman, Okla., Aug. 24, 1999)
"


You can see they contradict each other, because they are compiled by those who think too much, and do too little. There are some questions that have no real answer, because there are too many variables to give a realistic complete answer. It is like asking if it will rain on June 5th. Some people may answer it, and try to prove their point with the history of rain on June 5th, or the farmer's almanac, or simply choose to contradict anything thing I might say about June 5th. The truth is they would all be guesses, and you will have to wait till June 6th to have an absolute answer, and even then, some will argue with you.

As far as giving nice older ladies the advice to squat in a ditch to avoid being struck by lightening, I think I will take a pass. I have bad knees, and I know that I am more likely to hurt myself squatting in that ditch than gliding home to shelter from the rain. Let's not even go to the point that the first advice anyone should give is to simply come in from the rain. Most of us know that, except possibly domestic turkeys being fattened up for Thanksgiving.

So, snark away. I maintain that I have read nothing on this thread, or the research I have done regarding this topic, that will impact any person reading this thread in any way regarding being struck by lightening.

I did learn some interesting things on the websites I visited in researching this response, but I have no way to know the validity of that which I read.

I believe sometimes some of us take ourselves too seriously. Sometimes we can lighten up. Of course, this kind of lighten up is different from the lightening up you would do if struck by lightening.
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2015, 10:27 PM   #17
Lily Kerns
Member
Lily Kerns will become famous soon enoughLily Kerns will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SW Missouri, near Springfield
Posts: 875
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default

I would like to say that the moral of the story is to come in out of the rain.
However, one time, many years ago, we had ball lightning flash through our dining room. It happened so fast that we barely had time to be startled. It followed the stove pipe down, but didn't do any damage.

This was interesting research too... Apparently it is pretty rare, although it has a long history, and is pretty much unexplained.
__________________
Lily Kerns
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faculty:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Lily Kerns; 05-13-2015 at 10:33 PM..
Lily Kerns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2015, 06:20 PM   #18
SegNerd
Member
SegNerd will become famous soon enoughSegNerd will become famous soon enough
 
SegNerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Portland
Posts: 659
5 yr Member
Default

There was someone (sorry, I forgot who) that used to post on these forums about using a Nubrella on a Segway. I have not tried it, but it is an interesting idea.

As I explained elsewhere, I wear a motorcycle helmet anyway for other reasons, which is about all the protection from rain I usually need.
SegNerd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2015, 01:37 PM   #19
Civicsman
Senior Member
Civicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of lightCivicsman is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Freedonia!
Posts: 1,645
5 yr Member
Default

Quote:
You can see they contradict each other, because they are compiled by those who think too much, and do too little.
I realize that it is a personal choice, but I would much rather be in the camp of thinking too much, than not thinking enough. If a subject is important, then use your own brain. Take the time to read contrasting views, then do further research to see which views might be better supported by data than other views. Armed with more complete information, one has a much better chance of determining what is factual and what is merely opinion, and can consequently come to personal conclusions about what is reasonable, and what is not. If one is unable to do that, then life is already difficult, without worrying more about lightning strikes.

For example, while "Dr. Mercola" may have come up in someone's search about lightning, he is a Doctor of Osteopathy, not a specialist in lighting, or any other atmospheric phenomenon. His website is largely about medical issues. One must therefore presume that he gets his information about lightning strikes from someplace other than his own personal knowledge. Why then, would anyone use his numbers to try to make a point? (Here's a real source, from a bunch of people who "think too much". http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/research/lightning/ )

We don't know where Dr. Mercola got his statistics, but the salient point of his article is that lightning is dangerous, and one should take precautions. Regarding his statistics, Dr. Mercola himself clearly states that one must make a personal evaluation of the validity of sources of information. Of the quality of any given source, he says, [I]"... move on to the next important question: what are their qualifications? That's good advice, but not well understood by everyone.

Should one wish to take the time to do so, one could easily assess the quality of Dr. Mercola's information against that from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which has highly educated (i.e. "think too much") people on staff who study lightning, and some who compile statistics. While it is pretty obvious that NOAA likely has better info about lightning than Dr. Mercola, if the information conflicts in some important way, and one is not satisfied, then one must dig deeper still to get better answers.

Although the quotes from FEMA, Dr. Mercola, and Ron Holle (the NOAA meteorologist) may differ in some details, such as how many people are struck each year (The number of strikes per year seems to be a major sticking point for some), the fundamental message of all three quotes is that lightning can be deadly, and one should act intelligently and should take precautions so that they do not become a statistic. This overarching message is the most important part of all three quotes, and is seemingly ignored.

The posted quotes from Ron Holle, the NOAA meteorologist are particularly curious, in that they support my point of view. He supports my stated view that nearby buildings may provide some protection from lightning. Holle states that nobody can say exactly where a lightning strike will hit. That's certainly correct. It has no intelligence. It's finding it's way from cloud to earth by following the chaotic path of least resistance. If you are unlucky (or foolish enough) to be somewhere near the bottom end of that path, and "...if you are already the only tall object within 50 yards, then it doesn't matter much what you are holding."

It's clear to any sentient person that the odds of being a lightning statistic are obviously much higher if lightning is cracking in your vicinity. And if you're riding a Seg in conditions where lightning is likely, you are really tempting fate by offering yourself up as a good target.
Civicsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2015, 09:22 AM   #20
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,346 (SuperPoster!)
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Bureaucrats like to pontificate. There are no restrictions on if bureaucrats can be scientists or not. Those who must publish to keep the public (tax funded) dollars rolling in are not immune from pontificating.

I saw no practical or experiential evidence that said that anyone has survived a lightening strike, or had less damage to their body, because they squatted with their heels together instead of coming in out of the rain. Perhaps it exists, but all I found was theoretical data.

Of all the lightening survivors documented that I saw, none were squatting with their heels together.

We should also consider that this question was posed by a mobility challenged senior person.

I am not entirely in that same category, but do have my own challenges, and feel that the likelihood of having damage or discomfort from trying to squat like that in the rain is higher than from lightening strikes.

On this very thread, we have a first hand experience from ball lightening inside a house, so I can only hope that everyone in that dining room immediately jumped to their feet, then squatted in the corners of the room, as that would seem the only way to survive that event.

On considering that... I generally have between 25 to 30 people at my home each Thanksgiving for dinner. I shall propose to my wife that we should all eat while squatting with our heels together. If she agrees, I hope to be able to snap a picture and post it here.

All this aside, I still propose that all that has been posted here will have no impact at all on the likelihood of anyone reading this thread from being struck by lightening, or helping them to survive a strike, but if anyone does squat in the rain with their heels together, it may increase their likelihood of having some knee discomfort or the sniffles.

I agree with the statement that if armed with complete information, one has a better chance of determining what is factual and what is opinion, and come to a personal conclusion about what is reasonable. The problem is, when I post what I feel is reasonable, some do not like it.

On a parallel note, if segging on the moon without a space suit, you are best off holding your breath.

If anyone reading these words actually segways on the moon without a space suit, and without holding their breath, or gets struck by lightening and survives by squatting with their heels together, please post to this thread or send me a personal message, and I will happily print a retraction.

Edit: Upon reading my first line, I realize that I like to pontificate, and while not a bureaucrat, I am surely not alone in this tendency, as many of us on the internet like to do it. As a measure of full disclosure, I also do it in person, and upon occasion, will do it while squatting in the rain.
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

Last edited by KSagal; 05-27-2015 at 09:31 AM..
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:39 PM.
Copyright 2002-2017 SegwayChat.org.
All rights reserved. Not affiliated with Segway Inc.

FreshBlue vBulletin skin by
VayaDesign
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SegwayChat Archive