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Old 12-24-2016, 09:47 PM   #11
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I had to replace a gearbox on an i2 with >10K miles, due to my over-tightening a wheel nut to the point of twisting the bolt. (I didn't consult the manual for proper torque, instead relying on a faulty memory - dumb, I know.) Just for fun, I opened the old gearbox, and the oil looked as though it had just come from a can - nice honey color. Based on that, I'd say leave the oil alone. (I couldn't detect any wear on the gears either!)
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Old 12-25-2016, 12:49 AM   #12
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... I opened the old gearbox, and the oil looked as though it had just come from a can - nice honey color. Based on that, I'd say leave the oil alone. (I couldn't detect any wear on the gears either!)
That was my feeling, also - but I was trying to make rotorblades feel better by suggesting an "independent" opinion.
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Old 12-25-2016, 02:27 AM   #13
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This is a topic that I've given some thought to. I opened up a gearbox from a low-mileage 2006 to see if it would be possible to remove the output shaft/axle. Well, that was a fruitless endeavor. Nonetheless, I was able to hold the shaft in my lathe chuck and straighten the axle flange studs (the early 2nd-gen machines were prone to bent axle flanges.)

Anyway, the gears are amazing. Very high quality. The gear oil was clean as a whistle. Of course, this was on a very low-mileage machine. I remember reading that at least some of the 1st-gen machines had output axle shafts that weren't hardened. So, they would wear against the hardened needle bearings. One gentleman repaired the shafts with hardened caps and said that the gear oil was full of metal shavings and dust. It appears that this issue was resolved before the release of the 2nd-gens.

I have a 2010 i2 with around 4,800 miles. I also have a 2008 with around 40 miles. The 2010 is much louder. I can't tell if the noise has gotten any worse in the winter. I keep my machines stored inside, so the gearboxes don't see huge temperature fluctuations. I bought some heavier gear oil and have been planning to try it in my 2010. Just want to see if I can quiet it down some. The gears have enough backlash where temperature differences aren't likely to change the amount of mesh. The oil I got out of the gearbox seemed pretty light, so I have no idea if viscosity would fluctuate enough to make a noise difference.

Segway's tech support wasn't very helpful when I called to ask about gearboxes. They REALLY don't like anyone poking around in there. The Torx bolts for the gearboxes are peened so that a regular Torx wrench won't go in. I had to carefully tap the bit in to be able to get the bolts out. Same for the oil drain plug. It took a LOT of force to get that thing loose. Segway tech wouldn't tell me what the weight of the oil was or how much the gearboxes took. Before I asked about all that info, I had them check the serial number of the machine. They said it was clean. Down the road, I went to have a new infokey programmed, and Segway tech said the machine was blacklisted as reported stolen. I still think that my prying into the gearbox may've been the "stolen" part of that equation, so they just put the machine on the blacklist. Subsequently, that perfectly good machine is now a paperweight.

Eventually, I might get around to changing the oil in the 2010 gearboxes to a heavier weight. If I do, it would only be in an effort to quiet the machine some. I'd just guesstimate on the volume. The gearboxes don't see super-high RPMs, and there isn't a ton of gear pressure going through them. They are overbuilt, and both the gears and the oil will probably outlast the rest of the machine. These things are like a work of art.
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Old 12-25-2016, 05:56 PM   #14
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It is an interesting thing, that a person can decide they know better how to manage the oil in a gear box, than the people who designed and created that gearbox.

People can do anything they want with the items they own. But I find it incredibly egocentric to decide to change the oil as if you are improving something, or better maintaining it than the next guy.

The people who designed and made that segway consider it abuse to change the oil as you plan to do. It is not something you cannot do, or even something I would suggest you not do. You should do it if you want.

I just do not agree that you are doing it to improve anything. You are doing it because you want to, without a single shred of evidence that it will have any positive impact.

Comparing it to a gear box on a car is silly in my opinion. The relative stresses on a 100 pound electric device, compared to the stress on the drive mechanism of a several thousand pound internal combustion engine driven automobile is a straw man. It has no value at all to any person who is familiar with the drive mechanism of these two very different devices.

All that being said, go for it. Tell us about it. Document it in pictures. Have a ball. While you are at it, add some additives to the guessed at oil you are going to use. (how are you going to decide what oil to use? Are you going to have it chemically and otherwise analysed, or just feel it and guess?)

I have only had segways since they were introduced. My current segway is over 10 years old, and was among the very first 2006 i2 run from the summer of 2006. Perhaps the oil has gone bad. Perhaps you will add to the knowledge base here about segways and how they run, and how to improve them...

I am curious to see...
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Last edited by KSagal; 12-25-2016 at 06:05 PM..
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Old 12-25-2016, 08:11 PM   #15
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Lets see - He has a gearbox (never mind what it's from) which was very quiet when new and is now getting pretty noisy. In my book, that would be a 'shred of evidence' that something undesirable is happening and adding new oil of a higher viscosity has been an industry accepted thing to do for many years with old gearboxes which are getting a bit noisy - Any competent mechanic would tell you this is not only OK to do, but that it's a good idea to do

Case in point - The 5 speed transmissions used in Dodge diesel pickups from 1990 on came with automatic transmission fluid as the lubricant, which isn't known to be the best of lubricants for such an application. When those old gearboxes began to 'sing' after 50 or 60 thousand miles (and almost all of them did) any mechanic worth his salt would drain them and refill them with 10W30 motor oil and they will indeed run much quieter . . . . and last longer to boot. Even a Dodge technician will tell you this is a good idea

'Egocentric?' - Thinking only of himself? I would say the opposite. I believe he's thinking about the care and health of his Seg gearbox and doing something to extend it's life. Why anyone would think that's 'egocentric' is beyond me

If it's making noise, a higher viscosity oil certainly won't hurt it any so long as he's not riding in in below freezing temperatures . . . . and if he uses something like Mobil 1 5W20, even very cold temperatures won't hurt it any

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Old 12-25-2016, 09:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don M View Post
Lets see - He has a gearbox (never mind what it's from) which was very quiet when new and is now getting pretty noisy. In my book, that would be a 'shred of evidence' that something undesirable is happening and adding new oil of a higher viscosity has been an industry accepted thing to do for many years with old gearboxes which are getting a bit noisy - Any competent mechanic would tell you this is not only OK to do, but that it's a good idea to do

Case in point - The 5 speed transmissions used in Dodge diesel pickups from 1990 on came with automatic transmission fluid as the lubricant, which isn't known to be the best of lubricants for such an application. When those old gearboxes began to 'sing' after 50 or 60 thousand miles (and almost all of them did) any mechanic worth his salt would drain them and refill them with 10W30 motor oil and they will indeed run much quieter . . . . and last longer to boot. Even a Dodge technician will tell you this is a good idea

'Egocentric?' - Thinking only of himself? I would say the opposite. I believe he's thinking about the care and health of his Seg gearbox and doing something to extend it's life. Why anyone would think that's 'egocentric' is beyond me

If it's making noise, a higher viscosity oil certainly won't hurt it any so long as he's not riding in in below freezing temperatures . . . . and if he uses something like Mobil 1 5W20, even very cold temperatures won't hurt it any

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Ok Don,

You want to compare a gear box from a 100 pound segway to the transmission of a dodge from 20 plus years ago.

I ask you, what do you think are the relative stresses on a 5 speed transmission, and the relative RPM of the components, compared with the stresses of an electric mobility device that weighs less than 1/20 of the weight?

Also, since you are comparing these, what is the noise he is talking about, and since he mentioned it was temperature related, how do you know it is not simply the effect of the viscosity of the oil in the gearbox? For that matter, how can you know that the noise is even remotely related to the oil?

Furthermore, even though I have suggested that I believe your automotive examples are not appropriate, even you have suggested that the transmissions with at least 20 times the load show potential wear of the oil at 50 or 60 thousand miles, and he is suggesting changing that oil at 2500 miles. If we consider the 1/20th load of the segway gear boxes, and the suggested lifespan of the oil from Dodge that YOU presented, I would say you are giving a weak shred of evidence that he should change the oil in the segway gear boxes at about 0ne million miles on his segway. That is the 50K lifespan of the oil in the dodge transmissions times the 20 times less weight.

And we still have not considered that the oil in the segway may not be compatible with the engine oil you suggested. Are you sure there are no plastic parts in the segway gear box that would be dissolved by the detergent formulas in modern motor oils? How about the seals? Are you really sure that they are automotive types? Perhaps there are oil ingredients in motor oil that is detrimental to other gear parts?

Furthermore, you suggest that any competent mechanic would agree to replace the oil. Are you including the mechanics who fix segways? Since segway is dead set against this, that means you are saying that the mechanics who fix segways at the factory are not competent. That is quite a claim. I do not know if some of the men I knew 12 years ago there are still working there, but if so, I would say I do not agree. The men I knew in the service department were quite competent at fixing segways. I honestly do not know how competent they were at fixing Dodge transmissions.

Lastly, the poster indicated that his own family has members who feel his obsession with 'clean oil' is not based on mechanical aptitude, but some other emotional root.

So, you can attack me as much as you like for expressing my opinion, but it does not change it. You can prove your point to yourself by comparing the gearbox (a 5 pound device?) with the transmission of an old Dodge truck, but it does not prove your point to me.

I stand by my position. I may be wrong, but I have seen no argument here that has even addressed my considerations.

All that being said, I see no reason why that poster could not, or should not change that oil if he chooses. He could use good virgin olive oil for all I care. That way his Segway may be quieter, and even smell good. All I am saying, again, is that he is choosing to change the oil because he wants to. Not because he has any compelling evidence or knowledge (by my standards) that requires it. However, he may have enough reasons to want to do this anyway. He neither needs my approval or acceptance, nor yours. He owns his segway, and can and should do what he likes.

Look at my history and pics. I made many non-standard and many non-approved modifications to my segways over the years, and even showed them to several of the principals at Segway Inc, including Dean Kamen and Doug Field. They are generally accepting of people exercising their imagination and expertise in doing different things to their own segways.

So, if you own it, you can and should do what you wish, with my blessing.

Just I have not been in any way convinced it is somehow required.
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Old 12-26-2016, 01:28 PM   #17
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A gearbox is a gearbox - The all have shafts, seals bearings and gears which mesh with one another. Some operate with 5000 foot pounds of torque, some with 500 foot pounds and some only 5 foot pounds, but regardless, they are all more alike than they are different and basic principles of lubrication apply - Lighter weight lube for close tolerances and heavier weight when wear has increased the clearances between the moving parts

When gears mesh, they wear as do bearings and seals. When a gearbox begins to make noise it's usually because there are larger clearances between the moving parts and heavier oils help fill that void and reduce noise and also usually extend the useful life

I guess what stuck in my craw was you who admittedly have made 'many non-standard and many non-approved modifications' to your own Segs feel it's OK to call someone else 'egocentric' for doing the same thing to his

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Old 12-27-2016, 03:24 PM   #18
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Well, as usual with my threads, I see I have generated a sizable amount of opinions and information for the subject matter. So after reviewing what has been said, I'm going to leave things alone and put my "disease" to bed, as there are no issues with either gearbox at this time. Thank you all for your info and kind concerns. Earmic
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Old 12-28-2016, 01:14 PM   #19
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The only reason I, personally, would want to change the oil in my gearboxes is to quiet the machine down. I certainly don't think it would increase the longevity of machine. I'm confident in saying that the gearboxes will easily outlast both me and the electronics of the machine itself.

Also, I think comparing the gearboxes on the 2nd-gen Segway to that of a work truck is quite astute. They are both built to exacting standards. Of the two, I'd say the Seg gears are the ones which are "overbuilt" for the application. They will easily handle anything that we will be able to throw at them, and they still look like a work of art. In thinking about an oil viscosity change, I am certainly not suggesting that I know more than Segway engineers. I just want to find ways to quiet down my i2.

When I called Segway tech support, it quickly became clear to me that they don't want people to mess with gearboxes. Also, if you've ever taken one apart, the effort required also makes it rather evident. They were built to last indefinitely. The original gear oil is probably ideal for longevity, all conditions, all rider weights, all environments... It's probably a high-quality synthetic. I can't say for sure as Segway tech wouldn't tell me what it is or how much is normally used. I think keeping that info under wraps is just a liability measure. They would probably cringe at a thread like this.

Anyway, in terms of quieting down my i2, I think other measures may be more effective. My 2010 (4,800 miles and brand new couplers) is a fair bit louder than my 2008 (with only 40 miles.) I think that the gearboxes in the 2010 are only a little louder, but the fenders act as a megaphone and really amplify it. I might take the 2010 fenders and have them coated with Rhino liner. At first, I was thinking just the inside. However, I may actually have both sides done. I bet that would be effective at quieting the machine.

Since the fenders bolt right to the gearboxes, any noises get amplified. My friend's 320-mile x2 seems silent. My MiniPro is stealth! I'd like to get my i2 down a couple decibels, as well. If the Rhino liner doesn't do the trick, I might try an oil change. Part of the reason I'd do the fenders first is that it is VERY tough to get the oil drain plug out. I destroyed a Torx T27 wrench on the one that I opened. The plug is situated in a way so that vise grips are not an option. Trying to remove the oil plug is a bit of a gamble to begin with. If it were damaged, one would either need to drill or machine out the plug. Then, the whole gearbox would need to be opened to clean any shavings (which is a big PITA.) Or, the oil change idea could simply be abandoned altogether.

So, for anyone who can't overcome the curiosity about changing the gear oil, just know that it might end up being way more work than it's worth/expected. I might end up doing it, but I'm also one of those types who likes to take his stuff apart. It doesn't always get put back together, but it sure is fun seeing what's inside!
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Old 12-28-2016, 04:12 PM   #20
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After 3000-4000miles the output shaft beggins to ware and parallelism with the secondary shaft is lost. Now the noise is apearing. Because of this metal filings from the shaft ware begin to swin in the oil. Now the oil is compromised. He used shaft will create more and more metal particles in the oil.
You replace the gearbox or repair the output shaft. After shaft fix, all the parts inside the gearbox has to be whashed seriously.
Now need new oil, this is transmision oil from class GL-4, like 75W-90, 80W-90 and 85W-90. The last one is only for areas with very low temperatures. I allways use 75W90, and it pretty smooth!
Have fun researching!
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