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Special Needs, Mobility and Disabled Use Information and discussion for those with special needs interested in the Segway.

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Old 10-23-2014, 07:50 PM   #11
QuadSquad
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So as sitseg (who by the way was not only the world’s first innovator of the seated Segway, he was one of the founders of DRAFT and he’s been an advocate for people with disabilities under the ADA and the ACAA for decades) wrote… When it comes to the Segway “nothing has changed”

Which begs the question where on earth did segrick-ATL come up with this hypothesis? This is relatively serious business, violating federal hazmat regulations aboard commercial passenger carrying aircraft.

Believe it or not DRAFT is involved in these kinds of issues every day, we don’t kind of do it part-time, it’s a full-time job for a number of people.

We have 1300+ Segs4Vets recipients out there using Segways who we advocate for and the biggest challenge is that they can’t fly with them. We’ve been advocating for over 10 years on a daily basis both on the federal and state level for their rights under the ADA and the ACAA.

We believe in self advocacy, as a matter of fact if you're disabled it’s a requirement every day of your life. But if we're not knowledgeable about what we’re advocating for we do more damage than good. That's precisely what got us into the Disney mess.

So please stop calling the airlines and telling them you can fly with lithium-ion batteries now, because it’s simply not true and for the foreseeable future I don’t see any way around it even though we’ve looked at a number of options and met with a whole lot of knowledgeable people.

Segway could fix this but at the moment that’s not something that they appear to have an interest in.

Last edited by QuadSquad; 10-23-2014 at 08:00 PM..
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Old 10-24-2014, 12:53 AM   #12
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Sorry to have not posted any info - been travelling with a very non-responsive tablet.
Quadsqad and all, I understand how incredulous it sounds. I waited for a while after the PHMSA changes were communicated within the Dangerous Goods shipping regulatory environment before I posted. As I said, it will take a while for individual airlines to vet and communicate thru their internal channels. Believe me, with my reliance on my i2 for mobility, I would not hypothesize a hoax of this magnitude. After taking mine on vacation - on an aircraft - I felt it would be helpful to say there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Let me get off this crappy tablet and I can pull over some helpful info...just be a bit patient, and not think I'm crazy.
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregRice View Post
Segrick-ATL, would Delta let you gate check your Segway for mobility in the airport?
That is exactly what I did. Advance notice to reservations for special services request and identify Segway as your assistive device containing enclosed Lithium Ion batteries. Same thing when you get to the gate. They will know you are coming by the entry in your customer record. Even the TSA experience was pretty good.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:31 AM   #14
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Here is the link that segrick sent to me. http://www.regulations.gov/#!documen...2009-0095-0300

172.102 Special Provisions
- must be consigned under the entries “Lithium metal batteries contained in equipment” or “Lithium metal batteries packed with equipment” or “Lithium ion batteries contained in equipment” or “Lithium ion batteries packed with equipment” as appropriate.

The above specifically applies to those items being shipped not checked at the gate. If you look under IATA regulations (governing body for Hazmat air shipments) you will find that these would still be fully regulated hazmat and must be packaged and shipped as UN3480 if the batteries are sent on their own or UN3481 if they are shipped installed on equipment. By either method they are "Forbidden aboard passenger aircraft". IF you look in the CFR49 which is PHMSA's book you will find these are again "Forbidden aboard passenger aircraft".

Within the link if you search the special provision A54 you will find: Irrespective of the quantity limits in Column 9B of the § 172.101 table, a lithium battery, including a lithium battery packed with, or contained in, equipment that otherwise meets the applicable requirements of § 173.185, may have a mass exceeding 35 kg if approved by the Associate Administrator prior to shipment.

Column 9B is applicable to Cargo Aircraft Only shipments and is not a provision that applies to passenger aircraft.

Sorry to seemingly keep pushing back on this but I am not seeing any regulations which accomplish legal air travel aboard passenger planes with lithium batteries on a Segway. The one large hurdle is that Segway does not condone or endorse the Segway to be used as a mobility device. Hence, I think without their endorsement you would still be sitting is somewhat of a grey area since the Segway could then be argued not to applicable to rules developed for that use.
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Old 10-24-2014, 02:23 PM   #15
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As much as I would like to be wrong I can't find a single expert that agrees with segrick-ATL's interpretation of this.

Everybody I've talked to says....HUH?...No, No, No that's not correct.

The trouble with airlines is that hazmat issues are relatively complex and they don't know one battery from another so you can sometimes bamboozle and hoodwink them but if you get caught you're going to pay a serious price.

That together with virtually every airline that I fly on, which includes American, Southwest and on rare occasions United knows that the only Segway which can use nickel metal hydrate batteries is the generation one.

They also know that the reason 1300 Segs4Vets recipients aren't flying around with them is because of the prohibition of lithium ion batteries.If you show up with that funny looking one that steers weird you're going to be suspect right out of the box on those airlines.

But I'm always hoping that there's just an inkling of a chance that we are all wrong and segrick-ATL's right but I wouldn't want to bet $75,000 on it.
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Old 10-27-2014, 12:49 PM   #16
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I felt it was important that I follow up on this with everyone.

I have contacted PHMSA and spoke with Candice for formal interpretation on this topic. Below is all the relevant information.

175.10 paragraph 15 "A wheelchair or other battery powered mobility air equipped with a non-spillable, when carried as checked baggage, provided-

PHMSA response: This section does not apply to lithium batteries and if you read into paragraph 17 we address lithium batteries.

Paragraph 17 paragraph ii "For lithium-ion battery, an aggregate equivilent lithium content of not more than 8 grams per battery. except that up to two batteries with an aggregate equivilent lithium content of more than 8 grams but not more than 25 grams may be carried.

PHMSA response: Correct, this section clearly states that lithium batteries in excess of 25 grams cannot be transported on passenger aircraft.

I inquired about any special exceptions or special provisions made for mobility devices. They indicated that they could not find anything which would include the Segway lithium batteries due to the size of the batteries.

In short, per my discussion with PHMSA they are indicating that travelling with these batteries on passenger aircraft is illegal. It is 100% irrelevant what any airline tells you since those who make and enforce the regulations are saying that there is no exception or exemption permitting passenger aircraft travel with these batteries.

You may feel free to call 1-800-467-4922 and speak with a PHMSA specialist yourself. Be sure to inform them of the lithium content of 36g/382Whr per battery and also be sure to tell them that they are lithium-ion batteries.
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