Dangerous to Pedestrians. The Minipro, Not so Much

[retrodog]

That's what a security guy at work told me today. Actually the head of security at my work. I won't mention the company name but it's a big engineering company with government contracts in defense and space. And this is a pretty smart guy. I was asking about Segways because I potentially want to ride one between buildings. That's apparently ok. Inside, not really, but upon discussing the Minipro, I was told that might be ok. As it turns out, they have had problems in the past with those Rascal type scooters being used in place of wheelchairs. Basically, they go fast enough to break ankles and the drivers get carried away when they are in a hurry. According to the security guy, body to body contact is somewhat cushioned, even more so for chubby people, but many of the motorized devices have hard frame components that will break bones if up to mild speeds (5-10mph) and catch someone coming around a corner. It happened a few years ago and they suspended a guy's right to use one at work. Big mess and they lifted the temporary ban eventually.

I was almost ran/run down by a guy on one of the Rascal thing and he was flying down the hallway full speed, so I can certainly understand. I yelled at him to slow down, only to get ugly looks from others. I had violated the unwritten rule to never be rude to a handicapped person. One of them actually came by later to say sorry and admit the guy was goin way too fast.

So how should they handle this? Speeding tickets?

[therealzam]

Originally Posted by retrodog

That's what a security guy at work told me today. Actually the head of security at my work. I won't mention the company name but it's a big engineering company with government contracts in defense and space. And this is a pretty smart guy. I was asking about Segways because I potentially want to ride one between buildings. That's apparently ok. Inside, not really, but upon discussing the Minipro, I was told that might be ok. As it turns out, they have had problems in the past with those Rascal type scooters being used in place of wheelchairs. Basically, they go fast enough to break ankles and the drivers get carried away when they are in a hurry. According to the security guy, body to body contact is somewhat cushioned, even more so for chubby people, but many of the motorized devices have hard frame components that will break bones if up to mild speeds (5-10mph) and catch someone coming around a corner. It happened a few years ago and they suspended a guy's right to use one at work. Big mess and they lifted the temporary ban eventually.

I was almost ran/run down by a guy on one of the Rascal thing and he was flying down the hallway full speed, so I can certainly understand. I yelled at him to slow down, only to get ugly looks from others. I had violated the unwritten rule to never be rude to a handicapped person. One of them actually came by later to say sorry and admit the guy was goin way too fast.

So how should they handle this? Speeding tickets?

First & for most, banning a disabled person from using their PRESCRIBED mobility device is an ADA violation. It actually would violate it in many ways: Title 1 because of the employment discrimination, Title 2 because of the 'public' accommodation, and Title 3 for incidences on government property.

If the guy is behaving recklessly, they can ask him to slow down and provide other accommodations for the consequential tardiness. Even if someone else was injured, it's hard to prove which party was being negligent. Automatically blaming the disabled individual is an all-too-often occurrence. This is basically because others rarely encounter the disabled and dont know how to deal with the situation and in many cases simply don't care.

Many, including bystanders, act as if the disabled person is an annoyance at best, lazy, and a 'dangerous' nuisance at worst. They also can't accurately perceive the speed of the of a mobility device or the apparent 'recklessness' of the user. Going with the rascal scooter example, the disabled person can't see around corners well due to the position of the seat relative to his or her body. This issue applies to other mobility aids as well The able-bodied cut around corners in a rush without looking far to often. I can't tell you how many have knocked me over on my cane / walker (when I move VERY slowly), or ran right into me on my Seg (I usually travel at about 3mph inside). In both cases, they always blame me because I'm the "different" one. This even happens when I get knocked right onto the ground. I then have to wait for a less confrontational compassionate bystander to offer me assistance off the ground. This is a major reason why I use the more stable Seg as never fallen off from this type of incident.

Others also act in many inappropriate habits when encountering me (and my disabled friends). Others expect me to stay very far away from them while passing. They'll let other pedestrians pass within about 6 inches, without complaint, but often expect us to stay somewhere between 2 feet and a yard of them. They expect us to roll over wet (and even dangerous) terrain even though the disabled use their devices INSIDE, have no care that spinning devices attract far more mud than shoes, or how difficult it is for a disabled person to clean their own devices. Then, there are those who arrogantly refuse to move 6 inches out if the way when passing on an empty & wide sidewalk, randomly step right under my wheels, purposely walk into my path, tell us to go on the street, yell at us because we startled you when politely alerting you of our presence, or outright bash us for lazyness or some other ableist insult.

Getting back to speed and recklessness. Nobody is perfect. The disabled should be treated like everyone else with respect to interactions with able-bodiedpedestrians, but with dignity, respect, understanding, and patience. Everyone in a 'pedestrian' situation can go too quickly, not pay attention when line-of-site is limited, or be otherwise distracted. Just because our limitations and / or mobility aids give us different movement characteristics and make us 'heavier' & 'harder' than the able-bodied does not automatically assign blame to us when things go wrong.

[therealzam]

Some quick advice on how to deal with the situation:

1. First a disabled person will expect you to yield right of way to them, within reason. You don't need to stop in your tracks, but you should at least make enough room for the individual to pass. You also shouldn't expect the individual to give you a wider berth than any able-bodied person, or the hallway allows. On a mobility device, a disabled person is not able to adjust

2. To the able-bodied, a mobility device looks like it's moving far faster than it actually is. A "rascal" is usually limited to about 5MPH, which takes a long time to achieve. Average walking speed is a little over 3MPH mph, and many can easily hit 5mph without resorting to a 'jog' when one is in a hurry.

3. How would you react if you saw an able-bodied individual briskly walking through the same hall? Have you ever done so? Maybe you had important news, were running late, had a deadline, or needed to use the bathroom? Would you react the same way in such a scenario? If the answer is no, then you should leave the individual alone.

4. We're you paying attention when the incident occurred? If you were walking out of a door or at some form of junction, did you look around before entering the hallway? If rounding a corner, did you proceed cautiously? Remember, someone in a mobility scooter is located several feet behind the device's front and can't see you coming out of a doorway or rounding a corner as readily as you. Be vigilant.

5. In most situations getting rolled over or running into a mobility device is actually less likely to injure you than getting stepped on or running into another person. The weight is distributed over 4 wheels and has no direct impact force, like the downward force of your foot back onto the ground. The weight is also distributed evenly over the area where the tires hit the ground. I used to use my canes to get around crowded places. Not only did I get knocked over all the time, but the impact force and small contact area of my canes meant that quite a few drunks injured their toes when they stumbled under one of my canes while I was waddling about.

6. The individual is likely on that scooter a lot and is very experienced in its use. I for one, have 15 years on my Seg. It's basically been my legs all that time. I can maneuver forward and backward in spaces with less than 1in clearance on either side when needed (crowds, doorways), but prefer about 6in (normal minimum 'passing' distance for pedestrians). I can also turn with only a 1in wabble. Normal scooter are far less maneuverable, but an experienced user is definitely capable of forward movement within the 6in level I mentioned above.

7. Look for the model # online and try to see how fast it really can go. Just like a car, the speedometer doesn't display the actual top speed

Now if you think you've covered your bases here and there are still issues, I'd consider the following actions: be weary of the presence of someone with a mobility impairment. Attempt to avoid the corridors used by the individual in question. See if this is a pattern before getting confrontational. Try to see if the person is trying to go to the bathroom (this is often a major issue for the mobility impaired, especially given the rampant misuse of ADA bathrooms by the able-bodied). Confront HR: they may be able to adjust the individuals workspace, initiate stricter bathroom use rules, or provide some other accommodation which would reduce the individual's need for speed. If you feel like you must confront the individual, don't just make a bitchy comment. Be respectful. Don't confront him or her while he's in a hurry. Ask if there's a reason why he may be in a rush. Ask how fast he's actually going. Don't say something like"you're going to run me over!". Don't ask "what's wrong with you?". Above all, remember this: the guy probably has some serious problems to deal with, and there's not much you can legally do. If you make him upset, you're not only adding to his stress, but are unlikely to get anywhere as you have no real legal recourse.

[Civicsman]

banning a disabled person from using their PRESCRIBED mobility device is an ADA violation.

Probably, but the question is whether a doctor can legitimately prescribe a Seg as a disability mobility device. As I recall, Segway never had the business rights for the disability mobility market. Technically, they would have to refute any claim that a Seg IS a disability mobility device. Further, Segs never went through the formal federal certification required for an official disability mobility device.

Thus, can a doctor write a legitimate prescription for a device that has not been formally qualified for that function?

I'm not saying people do not or should not use Segs for mobility assistance. Neither am I saying that one cannot stick their disability placard on the front of a Seg. That is the individual saying, I'm disabled and this is my Seg. Rather, I am wondering whether a Seg would stand legal scrutiny as a legitimate and certified "prescribed" mobility device.

X2's are Segs. Does everyone have to make their doorways wider to accept X2's if a doctor writes a prescription for it? I think not.

[Civicsman]

In most situations getting rolled over or running into a mobility device is actually less likely to injure you than getting stepped on or running into another person. The weight is distributed over 4 wheels and has no direct impact force, like the downward force of your foot back onto the ground. The weight is also distributed evenly over the area where the tires hit the ground.

I disagree with this thinking. I would much rather have someone step on my foot, than have a three or four wheel device run into my leg or ankle. Your argument does not take inertia into account. You've got the human person, plus another 150 lbs of machine, potentially moving faster than humans walk. Much more energy there.

[rwoynaro]

Originally Posted by retrodog

That's what a security guy at work told me today. Actually the head of security at my work. I won't mention the company name but it's a big engineering company with government contracts in defense and space. And this is a pretty smart guy. I was asking about Segways because I potentially want to ride one between buildings. That's apparently ok. Inside, not really, but upon discussing the Minipro, I was told that might be ok. As it turns out, they have had problems in the past with those Rascal type scooters being used in place of wheelchairs. Basically, they go fast enough to break ankles and the drivers get carried away when they are in a hurry. According to the security guy, body to body contact is somewhat cushioned, even more so for chubby people, but many of the motorized devices have hard frame components that will break bones if up to mild speeds (5-10mph) and catch someone coming around a corner. It happened a few years ago and they suspended a guy's right to use one at work. Big mess and they lifted the temporary ban eventually.

I was almost ran/run down by a guy on one of the Rascal thing and he was flying down the hallway full speed, so I can certainly understand. I yelled at him to slow down, only to get ugly looks from others. I had violated the unwritten rule to never be rude to a handicapped person. One of them actually came by later to say sorry and admit the guy was goin way too fast.

So how should they handle this? Speeding tickets?

As a handicapped person, I have been using an I2 since 2010 and an SE since last year on the job in a corporate and government environment. I also have it approved for use at any govt and military facility, including SCIFs, if you know what they are but that was admittdly quite cumbersome to get finally approved and it took an annoyingly long time to get the final sign-off and blessing. I now carry a document with me certifying that it has been approved, and as a result, with courteous gliding and a positive grateful-for-the-accommodation attitude, I am welcomed anywhere. But the responsibility is on the glider. You are just one person. Handicapped or not, you must conform to the safety of the rest. It does take conscious effort to remember to slow down, as its often such a nice thing to take off and make up some time plus, it's fun. I wouldn't think a "speeding ticket" is the answer, but rather an HR issue on whether a person is able to function in a workplace in a safe manner. It would open up a "can of worms" I bet though to hear it raised and how it would be resolved. The offending person (glider or rider) is just being irresponsible and needs to be dealt with. Plain and simple. Let alone giving a bad rep to the rest of us who need to use them.

[KSagal]

1. I have frequently found people/pedestrians over react to seeing me or having me approach. Their reaction is most often related to their being startled or dealing with what they did not expect, rather than any danger.

2. The disabled people we are discussing are simply mobility impaired. They don't get around as well as some others. They are every bit as capable of being disrespectful, inconsiderate, or inappropriate as any one else.

3. I believe it equally as biased to presume that the guy on the rascal was going too fast than it is to presume that the other people in the hallway were reacting to being startled rather than anything else.

In other words, we do not know enough to make an informed assessment, so instead there were two opposite opinions voiced, without independent corroboration. (the second hand story from the security guard was about a previous incident, not the one in the hall way...)

4. I believe it is a myth to say that the ADA applies to an 'approved' mobility device, and does not apply to an unapproved device. There is no such list of what is approved and what is not. That is not to say that there are not dimensions or other information that is published about what is required to be accommodated according to the ADA. Device width, as an example is specified so that people cannot require that all the doorways in an establishment be changed as an accommodation. These are also the type of dimensions that are published about what can fit on a pedestrian sidewalk and what cannot. I believe there is no list, but I further believe there are specifications published about what the maximum size, speed, and other details that would qualify to be accommodated.

My Sister in Law's Father in law was 93 when he died. He was in the back yard, and he died with a shovel in his hands. He was not digging a hole. He used a cane all the time, when I saw him walk. That day, he was using the shovel as his cane. He frequently used whatever was convenient. I saw him use baseball bats, and several other things. He was quite an interesting guy. One time I saw him dragging a lawn chair around the back yard like a walker.

I would like to hear someone post how a lawn chair is not an 'approved' mobility device. I would love to hear someone tell me that Al was wrong for walking that last day with a shovel instead of a cane. I will say right now, if you try, you would be dead wrong, and clearly foolish.

[QuadSquad]

Originally Posted by Civicsman

Probably, but the question is whether a doctor can legitimately prescribe a Seg as a disability mobility device. As I recall, Segway never had the business rights for the disability mobility market. Technically, they would have to refute any claim that a Seg IS a disability mobility device. Further, Segs never went through the formal federal certification required for an official disability mobility device.

Thus, can a doctor write a legitimate prescription for a device that has not been formally qualified for that function?

I'm not saying people do not or should not use Segs for mobility assistance. Neither am I saying that one cannot stick their disability placard on the front of a Seg. That is the individual saying, I'm disabled and this is my Seg. Rather, I am wondering whether a Seg would stand legal scrutiny as a legitimate and certified "prescribed" mobility device.

X2's are Segs. Does everyone have to make their doorways wider to accept X2's if a doctor writes a prescription for it? I think not.

I rarely engage in these conversations anymore, even though I visit Segway chat every single day. But when someone who has been here as long as this cat has makes these statements I can't resist a comment.

Point 1: yes, the Segway is a legitimate mobility device and protected under the ADA.
Point 2: a doctor can write a prescription for anything he would like but that has nothing to do with an individual who has a disability using a device which best meets his needs for mobility. You are not required to have a prescription to utilize a device to be protected under the ADA.
Point 3: the built environment is governed under the ADAAG and the size of doorways for places of public accommodation are stipulated in those guidelines.

The rest of your thoughts are superfluous, unenlightened and uneducated BS. Here are some links you might want to visit to assist you should you care to emerge from the dark ages.

Oh and by the way if someone, anyone, is using a mobility device in a dangerous way they can be ejected and prohibited from entry until such time as they learn to exhibit appropriate behavior.

https://www.ada.gov/opdmd.htm

https://www.transit.dot.gov/regulati...ation-vehicles

http://www.draft.ngo

[dale@thecoys.net]

What Karl said!

[dudeman1961]

I was out endangering the public today in Portland at Art In The Pearl. I probably endangered a 1000 at close proximity. Lots of smiles, lots of 'what is that dude doing, oh, he has a placard'... Lots of fun. I am so grateful Mr. Kamen invented this thing. It has reopened my world!.