Fifty feet ain't enough

[2wheeler]

Checked the voltage on the batteries last night:

Both at 77.1

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[KSagal]

Skip,

My understanding of the way these and most batteries work, as well as their gauges, is as follows. I encourage those among us with bigger brains than I, or more knowledge than I, to chime in and endorse or correct my understandings...

The segway has batteries that test out at a certain voltage when fully charged, and a different voltage when 'reasonably' discharged.

Additionally, a battery of a certain construction and design, will be able to provide power (voltage at a certain load or current draw) for a predictable time till the voltage and current drop off.

The battery gauge on the segway (either handlebar on gen 1 or infokey display) is primarily a voltage meter, equating the voltage in the battery as energy available and or energy stored. It presumes the degradation rate as prescribed as designed for a new and properly functioning battery.

After a time, the predictability of the time till the voltage and current drop off gets very short, as the chemical and other processes withing the battery system degrade.

In other words, a good new segway battery may test out at 77 volts with no load, and a worn out old segway battery may test out at 77 volts with no load as well.

But, the new good battery can provide a load, or current draw, or the ability to drive the motors for a long time, before the voltage drops significantly below the 77 volts, while the old worn battery will provide that same power for a significantly shorter time before the voltage and available power drop off significantly.

I think of it this way... You can take two men, 200 pounds, 5'11" tall. One is 25 years old, the other 50. Both are in relatively good shape for their age. Both are reasonably fit (not obese or infirmed)

Now, if you ask both to lift a 50 pound box, and watch them do it, they may easily do it. (this is your initial voltage test)

Now, ask them both to jog around the block, with that box. (or backpack)

All other things being as expected, the initial task can look similar for both men.

But, during the jog around the block, unless the men have skills or problems that are not initially obvious, the man 1/2 the age of the other will have far fewer problems, and a much better time jogging around the block.

At the end of the jog, the 25 year old is far more likely to have more reserve energy, and will be far more likely to recover faster than the 50 year old.

I hope the engineers and truly knowledgeable folks on this forum will allow some poetic license to me, but also correct the example, if needed.

Based on the expected lifespan of a segway battery, your 'man' may be closer to 75 years old than 50.

I am in my mid 50s, and my batteries are closer to their expected life span than I am, so I know your situation...

Good luck

[KSagal]

I reread your posts, and I understand that you are resistant to the possibility of this being a battery problem, and you may be right. There is surely no guaranty that the batteries are your problem.

Unfortunately, there is not too much you can do for yourself to fix a broken segway.

You posted that you spoke to segway and they suggested that it was a main board problem. You cannot fix that, the machine would have to go back to the factory for that.

You posted that you did not want to send it there either.

My thought about the batteries was from your description, and the fact that it is something you can diagnose yourself, by somehow getting your hands on another set of batteries, and see if the problem stays with your segway, or stays with that set of batteries. (If you go to the dealer, you not only borrow (rent?) a set of good batteries and put them on your machine to see if your segway will work better, but you also put your batteries on another machine to see if it will act like yours does now)

You are stuck with limited options, according to your postings.

The battery swaps and diagnosis you can do. Most all other repairs you cannot do.

The batteries are a consumable part of the segway, with a finite life span, and common types of problems as they age, that match your symptoms.

Other faults may be at play here. But with most situations, it is best to eliminate some of the more common problems, and easier to solve situations, before you go on to the more complex and expensive repairs.

Think of how you will feel, if you loose the use of the segway for an extended period of time, save up the money and send it to the factory, only to have them tell you the segway is fine, all you needed was batteries.

Resistance if futile. Check out your batteries, and if that fixes your problems, great. If not, then move on to more difficult and complex repairs...

Good luck.

[2wheeler]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Skip,

My understanding of the way these and most batteries work, as well as their gauges, is as follows. ...

Good luck

Hey Karl;

Thanks for the most recent eloquent emails above. My guess is that you not only understand battery technology but can type with ALL of your fingers. ;-)

I am closer than you to the 75 YO man that you refer to, and hope that my batteries don’t require reviving/rebuilding, but lets deal with my Segway first…

My general understanding of battery tech is similar to yours. However, you have explained what we understand, so well, I hope I may quote you.

It would be very useful to know how the Segway determines what to show on the (in my case Gen 1) display. For instance (rhetorical); assuming both batteries are “good”, what would the display show if one battery was fully charged but the other not so? Does the display show in real time or “sample and hold”? Or perhaps a combo deal with dampening?

My experience has shown that the charging seems to be working fine and regardless of how many times I have glided 50+ feet (before it died and was restarted), the battery gauge has not shown less than a full charge. If the gauge shows in real time, and the batteries were fully charged but weak, the gauge should show a drop when under load. And if the batteries were weak enough to trigger Segway’s threshold of acceptability, the ride would go into “fault”.

Prior to these problems I would plug in my ride only when the gauge showed less than half full (monthly or so). I will explain my situation and usage in my next post.


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[2wheeler]

Originally Posted by KSagal

I reread your posts, and I understand that you are resistant to the possibility of this being a battery problem, and you may be right. There is surely no guaranty that the batteries are your problem.
...
Good luck.

Again Karl, Thanx

I am most certainly not opposed to having Segway repair what ails me.
My issue is monetary versus my skill set.

Background:
I bought it in September 05. I actually committed to buy one sight unseen as soon as a Li-on battery version was available. But for fun, my girlfriend and I rented 2 of them for a half day before writing the deposit check.
Back then, I had a real job and a real income, so $7500 was doable.
Now, I’m retired with a small fixed pension; doing part time night security (with my Segway) to help pay the rent.

My working career has been varied to say the least, but includes decades of electronic and mechanical repairs. I can fix anything if I have/or can find the information to determine the fault. In the case of a Segway, due to the lack of information (as far as I know), this reduces me from board level repair to module swapping.

I totally agree with your repair synopsis.
In fact, for some time now I believe I have known the fault, but logic requires deductive action to confirm.

Yes; number one is to swap the batteries. Unfortunately, although I live in the third largest city in Canada, There is no dealer, and I know of no one to ask about swapping batteries. The nearest Canadian servicing dealer is in Edmonton; a 14 hour drive (each way). Although they would have “known good” batteries to try, they can’t repair the Segway but only offer to send it to NH. Shipping it across the border (twice) would just be nuts. The nearest servicing dealer is a 3 hour drive away, stateside. I have contacted them but their only interest is to send it back east.
No one will give me even a clue as to how much it would cost. Which means, I can’t do it.

My assumption based on my electronic device (mostly computer) repair history, is that the problem is mechanical. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was one of the gyros packing it in.

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[KSagal]

Skip,

Perhaps a different angle...

Place a local ad asking to rent a segway, or borrow one, or some such thing.

As you say, there may easily be many Canadians in your area, but no professional segway support folks. That does not mean there are no amateurs like yourself.

Only a tiny slice of segway owners read this forum, and to my knowledge, this is the most populace segway forum for owners.

Perhaps you can use local media (newspapers, craigs list, etc) to find local seggers to swap batteries with you, for a diagnostic start.

Good luck again, keep us posted...

[KSagal]

Also,

The battery indicator on segways is not real time, and not as quick responding as many may feel it should be...

The segway averages the voltage of the batteries over several samplings, and displays the least power it perceives.

So, it will more reflect the weaker of two batteries if they are not equal.

It will also generally take several minutes to respond to changes, and that often leaves it displaying data that is more appropriate to several minutes ago than now.

There were quite a few threads years back about how if you unplug a fully charged segway with new batteries and turn it on and try to take off right away, it will give a flat face and reduce performance for the first 1/4 mile or so. This is because it requires several voltage samples to be able to predict what to display and understand how much power it has. For the lack of this data, it will reduce performance till it can effectively sample the battery, and then feel better about available power.

I believe a normally operating set of batteries on a segway will not substantially change their characteristics in the 50 feet or so that you say your segway will go and then fail. Because of this, it very well may be that your segway will not adequately have a way to display your accurate battery problem, as they may be degrading far faster than the display has the capacity to display.

Also, you may be right, the segway may be right, it may be failing for some reasons far removed from the batteries. It may indeed have a main board problem.

Changing the batteries is still the appropriate first diagnostic step.

[2wheeler]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Skip,

Perhaps a different angle...

Place a local ad asking to rent a segway, or borrow one, or some such thing.

...

Good luck again, keep us posted...

Thanx;

OK, I have placed an ad in local Craigslist and Reddit, to no avail yet. I have written to Segway NH with the hope they can estimate worst case repair cost if I send them the platform; no response yet. It seems my best option so far to test the batteries is to drive for 7 hours to a foreign country to have a pre booked technician, swap batteries that I could do in 5 minutes if I can find someone in my 2.4 million local population or 4.5 million in my province, with a Li-on Segway.

There must be a way to find other local owners. Today I will try to contact local E-bike outlets in case they know of a Segway owner.

Frustrating...

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[KSagal]

It seems fairly unlikely to me that in all those people in your metro area, and your province do not have a segway...

Still, you will eventually need to do what you need to do, whether it is find another willing segway owner near you, or move yourself to where a willing segway owner is that you can find...

[2wheeler]

Update:
I spent a lot of time on the phone and internet and finally found a local Segway tour company who agreed to let me swap batteries. However, as the appointed day drew near, they said they were concerned that my batteries could wreck their Segway, or my Segway could wreck their batteries. Anyway they said that they would take that chance but not until they close for the season.
Another tour/sales company showed up in my searches, but not so local (Victoria). I wrote them and my new found friends Mike and Corinne of Segway Victoria ( segwayvictoriabc.ca ) went out of their way to help. They happened to be coming to Vancouver today and they had brought one of their Gen one machines with Li-on batteries. They came to my place (!) and we swapped batteries (and stories) both ways. Their machine ran fine with my batteries, and after a few minutes my machine with their good batteries died.
Now that its confirmed that the problem isn't batteries, its time to send the platform away...

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