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Old 02-01-2017, 05:48 PM   #1
dudeman1961
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Default Cold Weather Garage Storage

I have always lived in a warmer climate state and garage storage of the Segway has not been an issue with respect to it getting cold for its batteries. We moved north recently and the garage doesn't get below freezing but gets cold/close. Should I store it inside in the house?

Thanks SegCommunity!
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Old 02-03-2017, 10:58 AM   #2
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Default Store the batteries inside....

.... at a good charge.

I had mine stored in the garage until a month ago, and when I went to check on it, one battery had dropped to below charging level. I had to surface charge it before the on-board charger would recharge it.

The consensus is to charge the batteries fully, then glide for about ten minutes, then remove the batteries and store them indoors. That's what I did, and now I am monitoring their voltage on a weekly basis to insure no surprises.

My garage is heated to 32 F all winter. Mine is an XT with Li-ion batteries.

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Old 02-03-2017, 12:50 PM   #3
Don M
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Lithiums don't like very warm or very cold temperatures, it's true. They also don't like to be stored for long periods at a full charge.

If you have your Seg stored in the garage because you don't really have the space indoors, it would be ideal to just remove the batteries and store them inside. A 50% charge would be better than a full charge

If you leave the batteries on the machine for a year and don't plug it in, the machine will run the batteries down and possibly damage them, but if you remove them from the machine, you can store them for a year (or two) with a 50% charge and they will still show a 50% charge when you put them back on the machine . . . . no harm done

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Old 02-03-2017, 02:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don M View Post

If you leave the batteries on the machine for a year and don't plug it in, the machine will run the batteries down and possibly damage them, but if you remove them from the machine, you can store them for a year (or two) with a 50% charge and they will still show a 50% charge when you put them back on the machine . . . . no harm done

Don
This advice is 100% false. I would encourage anyone seeking guidance to visit Segway.com, and under the support tab, download the Li-Ion Battery booklet. This booklet is inserted into every battery box sent to a dealer, and should be passed on the the customer after purchase.


If someone follows your advice of 50% SOC, the voltage will fall below the safety cutoff and the batteries will not accept a charge, which will produce a red light condition. A very costly mistake.
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:39 AM   #5
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Default Winter Maintenance Tip

Segway Publication
Segway (PT) Winter Maintenance Tips, 2011 Document # 23034-00001aa
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File Type: jpg Segwinter.jpg (49.4 KB, 21 views)
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Old 02-04-2017, 02:40 PM   #6
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To each his own - A LOT more is known about the care and feeding of lithium cells than was known when the Segs were first built. There are over 7500 of the 18650 form factor cells in a Tesla pack and they don't recommend storing them with a high state of charge . . . . but maybe Elon Musk doesn't know better??

Note that my recommendation above was for batteries removed from the machine, so there is no draw on them - They will not self discharge hardly at all in a year or two

"Test data confirms that storage of lithium-ion batteries is best if the cell is partially discharged. In one test by Cadex Electronics ( http://www.buchmann.ca ) after 1 year storage at 25C the non-recoverable capacity remaining is 96% when stored at 40% initial charge level, but only 80% if stored with 100% initial charge level. This effect is reduced at lower temperature and is a non-issue at 0C. At higher temperatures the effect is much worse. Cadex's recommendations are to store below 15 C at 40% of full charge (3.5 volts per cell). Our experience is that with cells stored at room temperature for 3 years that the non-recoverable capacity did not decrease."

I have a couple extra sets of Seg lithiums in long term storage right now and the voltage hasn't decreased by even a tenth of a volt over the past 6 months

I also long term stored one of my Lithium EV's following Mitsubishi's recommendation of a 30% to 40% SOC and there was no measurable discharge after a year - It has a 330 volt, 50 AH battery pack (worth about $10K) so I wasn't about to take any chances!

Don

Last edited by Don M; 02-04-2017 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:38 PM   #7
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. . . . of course, it could be that Segway just wants to sell us more batteries. They're a sole source product (you can't get them anywhere else but from Segway) and they have a HUGE profit margin, so having them not last too long would really be good for the company's bottom line

I will never understand why there isn't a $2 On/Off switch on a Seg. Leaving the communication system running 24/7 even when the Seg is turned off (turned off as far as the user can turn it off without removing the batteries anyway) pretty much guarantees that most of the batteries which need replacement didn't wear out in the normal use of the machine; someone forgot to plug in the machine every so often and the small but constant draw it puts on the battery pack will eventually drain (and most likely ruin) at least one of the two batteries . . . . which means you gotta pony up a ridiculous sum to Segway to buy a new battery you wouldn't need if the machine had a simple switch to turn it fully off!!

Not being able to shut it off completely means most folks just leave them plugged in 24/7 which keeps the batteries at 100% SOC all the time and that is definitely not good for any lithium battery

Good for the company bottom line I suppose, but surely not in the best interest of the end user who is stuck buying new batteries much sooner than he otherwise would need them

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Old 02-04-2017, 05:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
There are over 7500 of the 18650 form factor cells in a Tesla pack and they don't recommend storing them with a high state of charge . . . . but maybe Elon Musk doesn't know better??
18650 is indeed a physical form factor, but that does not define the chemical technology. Segway uses lithium iron magnesium phosphate cells. (formerly called "Saphion", from Valence Technology). This is a much safer technology than most other common lithium ion cells. They can be shot with a gun, crushed, and skewered without the cell generating enough heat to set fire to adjacent cells (thermal runaway).

Consequently, what Elon Musk recommends for his automobile batteries is not very meaningful for other technologies. Jason of MTOBATTERY on this forum knows Segway LiIon batteries. He's the "go to" guy for how to treat Seg batteries properly.
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Old 02-04-2017, 08:13 PM   #9
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I do agree that there are many different variants of lithium technology and some are more tolerant of being left at higher SOC's for extended periods than others, but it's still not a good idea . . . . and also, what constitutes a 'full charge' varies quite a bit - Not charging cells to 100% makes them last lots longer and Segway doesn't come close to charging our batteries to 100%, so a 'full charge' isn't really 100%

No doubt they would last lots longer though if the Seg didn't put a small load on them when it's not in use and that pretty much forces many people to keep them plugged in 24/7 - I don't do that either

But as a general rule, if you want any lithium to last a long time, it's not a good idea to long term store them in either a hot or cold place with a full charge. I personally don't leave my spare pairs anywhere near 'full' and I don't think what I'm doing is "100% false" - I do check their voltages periodically and so long as they're remaining constant (and well above 73.6) nothing bad is going to happen. But, by all means, do whatever floats your boat. They're your investment and you should care for them as you think best

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Old 02-06-2017, 01:53 PM   #10
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So just what constitutes cold storage? Mine will be in my cellar at 55F for 6 months, and I use it around the basement a few minutes a week or so and keep the batt level at 6-7 bars. Is this okay?
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