Frowny faced Segway pitched me off my ride today

[jgbackes]

Originally Posted by dangerlampost

Here's what the manual should say instead:

"Segway charges its batteries when it goes downhill. If you're going down a big hill, to prevent the batteries from over charging, you will see serious face and Segway will slow you way down, and may even come to a complete stop. If this happens, you must discharge the battery a little before you can continue going down hill, which you can do by going uphill again for a little while or balancing in place for a while.

If you are about to descend a large hill with a full battery charge, burn off some of the battery first before you start your descent."

That would be so much more useful to me (if I'd read it!).

I think you are 100% correct about the manual. As far as displaying an error, it probably did display an E308 or some such nonsense for why it shut down. There is a pretty good iPhone app written by a member of the forum that lists all of the error codes.

I hope you have twice as much fun as humanly possible on your Segway. Go out and GLIDE!

jeff

[dangerlampost]

If these replies are any indication of how this forum works, let me say that this is one of the best forums I have ever joined. Thanks Karl, Dale, Jeff, and everyone else.

Karl, you're right - I did have a way to find out what was going on. I could have remembered the one paragraph in the entire 146 page manual that talked about how the Segway would slow down to prevent over charging. From that, I could have deduced what the problem was (although as I pointed out, without any feedback as to why Segway is slowing down you have to guess), and also I could have deduced how to fix it by discharging the battery. All the clues were there. But I didn't figure this out, despite having read the entire manual cover to cover and watching the DVD before I stepped foot on the Segway, talking with my dealer about this, and having a physics and engineering background. When you're in the middle of a glide and sh*t happens, as a newbie, you're not necessarily going to remember everything you read in the manual. I don't think too many new Segway riders would have been able to figure this out (especially those without a background in physics). It all seems so obvious to me now, but it wasn't then.

If I set anyone off by calling this a "design flaw" I apologize about that. As a life-long software engineer (nearing 40 years of development, yikes!), virtually every product I have ever seen has design flaws (or bugs), at least as I think of the term. From my perspective, these are really just areas for improvement. I consider the Segway to be no exception.

As to the question of whether the designer (Segway) was negligent in this situation (or who is responsible for doing what especially in a legal sense), I did not mean to imply anything in that regard. Really I'm only looking at how to make things better, hence all my suggestions for improvement.

[KSagal]

Danger...

You are right, it is reasonable for a new rider to not know what was going on. I did not mean to indicate otherwise. I feel that your question was reasonable, if kept in context.

I was only trying to point out that the clues were there in the after thought. I was only responding to your statement that it did not tell you certain things, when it did, but not adequately enough for you to understand at the time.

I also went into a change, when discussing a display I do not use on my GPS. It shows that a designer thought of something that may be important to others, even though it holds no value to me.

We should also recall that the machine was designed and released in or prior to 2003, with the latest update in 2006. Think of the user interfaces from that time. Think of the smart phones (maybe a blackberry?) or the other items, like the GPS units. They worked, but they did not interface with the operators the way that more modern units do.

I will agree, it is high time for a modernization of the user interface with the segway. I think the unit itself is still quite valid, but the user interface is quite dated.

I would guess the next generation will use an app of some sort, so that the users can continue to upgrade, and the machines do not need to be retooled in any way for the interface to continue to be current, or at least less generations behind than they are now.

One last consideration. You live on a big hill. You glide down to leave that home, on full batteries.

Is this a common situation? If so, how common? I do not know.

I think it is great that you brought this to the forum, because to my knowledge, it has not been here before. Lots of us have spoken to the fact that the machines slow down on moving down a hill, but I do not recall any discussion of stopping entirely. So...

Is this new? No. Is this an issue because a new operator tried to force the segway to do what it would not want to do? Yes. Most more experienced operators have learned that for right or wrong, you can rarely force the segway to do a thing it is trying hard not to do. Most of us have learned how far we can push it, before it will choose that we do not deserve to be balanced upon its back.

And for the record, most every one of us have found the road with our face, or some other body part, unintentionally. Those who have not are due.

GLide more, keep smiling. Keep bringing new topics to this decade plus old forum.

[terryp]

I live at the bottom of a cul-de-sac which has a downhill trail at the bottom, so I have a choice of going uphill or downhill when leaving home. Whichever I choose, I HAVE to burn off some energy first, which I do by leaving the Seg in balance mode against a wall for at least 15 minutes. If I don't, starting downhill causes the usual pushback, as expected, while going uphill causes a frown face, stickshake, and shutdown. This happens with both of my i2s. Is anyone able to unplug, power up and head right up a hill without this happening?

Also, when going downhill on a full charge and getting pushback, I've found that turning around to go uphill for a block or so will usually make Smiley happy, but not always; sometimes it acts like it thinks it's still going downhill. And if I don't burn off enough energy before starting downhill on a full charge, when I reach level road at the bottom, the Seg won't let me speed up, like it doesn't realize we're not going downhill anymore. Even if I stop, wait for the happy face, then start moving again, even slowly, I often get the frown, stickshake and shutdown - kinda like it's holding a grudge. As soon as I restart, I can take off at full speed.

Any of this ring a bell with anyone else?

[KSagal]

TerryP,

I keep my seg in the cellar, and exit the house thru the attached garage, which is under my house, and then glide up the driveway ramp to the street.

If I unplug, climb on, and go right away, I too get the frowny face. But even just that little uphill is enough to burn some energy, so that if I make it a point to keep it under about 6 or 8 miles per hour for the first 1/4 mile or so, then speed up, I am fine...

If I try to go fast right away, I get the unhappy face too. But mine seems to go away much faster than some, just a few minutes or few hundred yards. Most of this however is pretty level.

[SegwayDan]

I seem to recall the Segway PT is rated for climbing/descending grades of a maximum of 20%, which means that the "rise" of the slope is .2 of the "run", or about 11.3°. Accordingly, a 50% grade would be 30°, and a 100% grade would be 45°.

[terryp]

Originally Posted by SegwayDan

I seem to recall the Segway PT is rated for climbing/descending grades of a maximum of 20%, which means that the "rise" of the slope is .2 of the "run", or about 11.3°. Accordingly, a 50% grade would be 30°, and a 100% grade would be 45°.

I remember it as 20 degrees, but don't know where I heard it. The specs page in the manual doesn't list a maximum grade, and if there is one, it's probably based on safety.

My hill is not particularly steep, and once the batteries have been drained a little, Smiley stays happy going up it. Not so if he's just been awakened.

It's a shame that we who live on hills can't just jump on and take off, instead having to plan ahead, and make two trips to the garage.

[Lily Kerns]

Originally Posted by terryp

I remember it as 20 degrees, but don't know where I heard it. The specs page in the manual doesn't list a maximum grade, and if there is one, it's probably based on safety.

My hill is not particularly steep, and once the batteries have been drained a little, Smiley stays happy going up it. Not so if he's just been awakened.

It's a shame that we who live on hills can't just jump on and take off, instead having to plan ahead, and make two trips to the garage.

There are at least two you tube videos on Baldwin St, Dunedin, New Zealad. One says its gradient is 35 degrees and this one shows a Seg being ridden up that street:

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by dangerlampost

I did figure out what this problem is - with help from my local (Oakland, CA) Segway dealer, who relayed advice to me from none other than Steve Wozniak of Apple fame, who apparently glides down a big hill in Los Gatos regularly and has a similar issue.

Ah, so Steve passed on word from Steve that if you just go back uphill, it will all be even-Steven!

It does make sense, from a physics point of view.

I haven't forgotten about writing up the physics, but I've been dealing with a cold that led to asthma that then had influenza added atop. And then, today, a wisdom tooth extraction.

All while starting a new, demanding job.

[Bob.Kerns]

Originally Posted by dangerlampost

What if Segway came with a built in (and very bright) light? When Segway detects that it's full and going down hill, it can automatically turn on the light. Might this give you a little more downhill before you need to stop and burn off more charge? If you can burn up enough extra power, you might even be able to sustain your downhill to the bottom.

I agree, it should communicate better about the state of things. Remember, though, that 12 years ago, we weren't all carrying around supercomputers in our pockets, with high resolution displays, and even the i2 7 years ago wasn't that different in how it worked or communicated.

Back in my youth, I built a load tester for theater dimmer systems. It used 1000W space heater elements in an array, enclosed in a sheet metal housing.

Really, all energy ends up as heat. Trying to do something with it along the way is going to cost you. Light bulbs do not last as long as heating elements, for example, so you'll pay more twice -- to buy, and to replace.

A modern LED lighting system, is not something you are going to want to use to dump energy into. You'd get your blind behind sued by all the blinded bystanders. So clearly you'd use an incandescent system -- simply an inefficient space heater, so inefficient that it overheats to very near the point of failure.

The sane way to do it would be with a big power resister, and just worry about efficiently dumping the heat into the environment (and not the electronics or the user). But I've never spotted such a beast on my few occasions peering inside a Segway (at Segway of Oakland). And yes, I did look -- I did wonder what it did with any energy beyond what the battery could accept.