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Segway General Discussion General discussion related to any model of Segways, miniPROs, or Ninebots. Please do not post non-Segway technology posts here; use the technology forum instead.

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Old 08-07-2016, 02:39 PM   #11
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I guess these are just the "growing pains" and trade-offs of battery tech. The tipping point in battery development has gotta be getting close. It wasn't all that long ago that NiCads were the standard. Now, an electric sedan has the fastest 0-60 for any production vehicle, and an electric motorcycle won the open division at Pike's Peak. In 20 years, a Seg will be powered by a $100 battery that can last all day and charge in 20 minutes! We will look back on these battery woes and appreciate the fantastic new technology.

Still, in what I am reading, it seems the WORST thing one can do for a Segway battery is to NOT use it. The batteries in units that get "exercised" daily seem to go for much longer. I just read a post in which a gentleman mentioned putting over 11,000 miles on his original batteries (with no noticeable loss of range.) I think ten years is a reasonable expectation for life of a $2,000 set of batteries. The used Tesla batts are insane. $20K for used. That's bonkers.

The Seg batteries aren't terribly complicated, but I damned sure wouldn't want to try to re-cell them myself. I am going to get in touch with some of the rebuilders to see what type of replacement cells They use and just how "thorough" of a job is performed.

The other day, I got to ride in a Tesla (P90 with Ludicrous mode engaged.) It was incredible. I became light-headed under acceleration. 0-100 in five seconds. No noise. Improvements in battery tech are going to soon change the face of transportation.
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Old 08-07-2016, 06:16 PM   #12
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The other day, I got to ride in a Tesla (P90 with Ludicrous mode engaged.) It was incredible. I became light-headed under acceleration. 0-100 in five seconds. No noise. Improvements in battery tech are going to soon change the face of transportation.
Hard to believe they are able to do that with the same 18650 cells we have in our Segs, isn't it?

In the Tesla pack each individual 3 Ah 18650 cell is fused to the pack with a 25 amp fuse. 7,104 cells at $5 per cell is over $35K, so the $20K for used isn't all that bad I guess. The 85 Kw battery weighs 1,250 pounds

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Old 08-08-2016, 11:49 AM   #13
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Hard to believe they are able to do that with the same 18650 cells we have in our Segs, isn't it?
Are they the same? 18650, by itself, apparently describes only the physical form factor. Cylindrical, 18 mm diameter x 65 mm long.

There is nothing on the Valence Technology website to suggest they are supplying lithium iron magnesium phosphate cells to Tesla. Nor have I been able to find any web stories indicating that Valence is a supplier to Tesla, or has licensed the (previously named) Saphion technology to Tesla.

Further, I did find an article from 2014 on the Society of Automotive Engineers website, stating, "Around 7000 individual cells, coded NCR18650A by their supplier Panasonic, are used in each Model S pack. Rated at 3100 mA·h, the cells are based on lithium nickel-cobalt aluminum (NCA) chemistry and feature a proprietary cathode geometry developed by Panasonic and Tesla"

This suggests to me that Tesla is NOT using the same lithium iron magnesium phosphate technology as is Segway. I would be very careful about of replacing Seg cells with cells from some other supplier. There is a lot of energy in those batteries.
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Old 08-08-2016, 12:20 PM   #14
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This suggests to me that Tesla is NOT using the same lithium iron magnesium phosphate technology as is Segway. I would be very careful about of replacing Seg cells with cells from some other supplier. There is a lot of energy in those batteries.
My apologies if I even suggested that Valence Technologies had anything to do with the Tesla cells or even that they're using the exact same composition - Obviously they're not. Panasonic makes the Tesla cells, at least until the Gigafactory is up and running

They're 18650 form factor, but there the similarity ends. They're liquid cooled, can be charged or discharged at 10C or above and are warrantied to last a very long time. I did find the 25 amp fusable links on each 3 AH cell very interesting, but then if you do the math during the 'Ludicrous mode' they're drawing 20 amps or more from each 3 AH cell

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Old 08-08-2016, 04:01 PM   #15
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It isn't uncommon for electronic cigarettes to pull 25A from an 18650 battery. The favorite battery among vapers was the Sony VTC-5, until they became scarce.
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:07 AM   #16
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It isn't uncommon for electronic cigarettes to pull 25A from an 18650 battery. The favorite battery among vapers was the Sony VTC-5, until they became scarce.
I was trying to read up on 18650 cells, and most of the top hits in the search were in regard to e-cigs. The info I read rated cells from LG very highly. I have a feeling that the tech and chemistry has improved since the Valence cells were developed. I'd imagine that most quality cells are quite reliable. Sure, they might die prematurely at some point, but I haven't seen or heard of any e-cigs exploding. I'll go out on a limb and say that battery safety has improved more than people realize.

That said, I think I would actually prefer to have Seg batteries rebuilt using newer cells (as opposed to the Valence.) As we've seen, the Valence cells don't appear to be rock reliable. In a pack of 92, it's probably just as likely to have failures with cells from Panasonic, Sony, LG, etc... I'd be more inclined to rebuild with newer cells that are well reviewed and have a higher capacity (for both storage and discharge) than the Valence cells. The info I read stated that cells with a higher discharge rate tend to last longer (even if they aren't being used at their max discharge rate.)

When I spoke with one of the battery rebuilders, he didn't specify which type/brand of cells are used in rebuilding. I'd imagine a request for premium cells would involve a premium price. However, as much as it costs when one of these packs goes down, it may be worth it. I'd pay an extra $100-200 to have packs rebuilt with premium cells. On fleaBay, I saw 100 of the aforementioned LG cells for $500. When I save up the money to buy rebuilt packs, I'll ask the builder if such cells can be used. There are cheaper options out there, but I feel a bit wary of bargain batteries. As much as the packs cost, I'd rather have the peace of mind with better quality.
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Old 08-09-2016, 11:04 AM   #17
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That said, I think I would actually prefer to have Seg batteries rebuilt using newer cells (as opposed to the Valence.)
I would be extremely cautious about that. Segs use a smart Battery Management System, which is presumably optimized for the Valence technology. Allowable voltages, charge and discharge rates might be different, and it is clear that the Seg WILL shut things down if it is not happy with the performance of the batteries. You could end up with a couple of very expensive doorstops.

As for " I haven't seen or heard of any e-cigs exploding.", all you have to do is search for it. There are numerous incidents, including several aboard aircraft. The FAA and ICAO recommended banning e-cigs from aircraft. The first search hit I got was a law firm, specifically advertising for people who had been hurt by flaming e-cigs. Obviously, there is a market for those legal services.

Actually, I don't see a lot of evidence that batteries with Valence cells are particularly prone to problems. People who keep their Segs properly charged often have long battery life. A common complaint for people who do not is that one of the batteries starts showing red. That's usually the one that powers (continuously) the radio board. Once the battery discharges below a preset voltage limit, the Seg won't charge that battery anymore (although it might still be "rejuvenated"). It is a design limitation of the Seg, and a rebuilt battery with different cells would be subject to the same limitation.

In addition, the Valence lithium-iron-magnesium phosphate Saphions are, or were, much less susceptible to thermal runaway than other technologies. Segway's BMS knows how to handle the Saphions, but isn't programmed for other battery technologies.

Check with MTOBATTERY in the USA or DGBINT in Australia for how to proceed. Both companies are represented on this forum.
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Old 08-09-2016, 12:19 PM   #18
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I would be extremely cautious about that. Segs use a smart Battery Management System, which is presumably optimized for the Valence technology. Allowable voltages, charge and discharge rates might be different, and it is clear that the Seg WILL shut things down if it is not happy with the performance of the batteries. You could end up with a couple of very expensive doorstops.

As for " I haven't seen or heard of any e-cigs exploding.", all you have to do is search for it. There are numerous incidents, including several aboard aircraft. The FAA and ICAO recommended banning e-cigs from aircraft. The first search hit I got was a law firm, specifically advertising for people who had been hurt by flaming e-cigs. Obviously, there is a market for those legal services.

Actually, I don't see a lot of evidence that batteries with Valence cells are particularly prone to problems. People who keep their Segs properly charged often have long battery life. A common complaint for people who do not is that one of the batteries starts showing red. That's usually the one that powers (continuously) the radio board. Once the battery discharges below a preset voltage limit, the Seg won't charge that battery anymore (although it might still be "rejuvenated"). It is a design limitation of the Seg, and a rebuilt battery with different cells would be subject to the same limitation.

In addition, the Valence lithium-iron-magnesium phosphate Saphions are, or were, much less susceptible to thermal runaway than other technologies. Segway's BMS knows how to handle the Saphions, but isn't programmed for other battery technologies.

Check with MTOBATTERY in the USA or DGBINT in Australia for how to proceed. Both companies are represented on this forum.

Hmm. Very good points. I certainly wouldn't want a flaming Segway. The burning e-cigs were probably a result of improper charge/discharge methods. I'd definitely trust the Segway BMS over some cheapo e-cig being sold in a store with "Vapez" in the name. I didn't look for failure incidents but rather the highest quality and well-reviewed cells.

The Saphion cells certainly seem stable. Weren't those the ones they shot with a gun in a demo video? The Saphions didn't burn while other cells burst into flames. Of course, this was a marketing video, but it still made a valid point.

I was under the impression that MTO doesn't use Saphion cells in rebuilds. It isn't stated anywhere, and the provided info says that rebuilds have a higher-than-factory capacity (6.0 aH vs 5.2.) That seems to indicate that they use different cells in their rebuilt packs. I haven't heard of any complaints in regard to their work, so I just assumed the Segway BMS has no problem handling cells with different specs. It probably just takes a little longer to charge the higher capacity.

The way I see it, dealing with aging Segway batteries is always going to be an expensive gamble. One might get eight years of regular use out of some batteries. Maybe only 13 months (30 days past warranty.) Unfortunately, these Segways are a bit ahead of battery technology. I still wonder how much battery problems had to do with the company's lack of success. 90% of the Segways I've seen for sale either have dead batteries, or the batteries were just replaced. That means there have been a LOT of Segways going unused because of battery problems. Ten years from now, I wonder If we will see the same thing with Tesla's Model 3. Are consumers going to want to pay $13,000 for a new battery in an 8-year-old car? I highly doubt it. I'm guessing the brains behind Tesla realize that, too. The batteries will either be WAY cheaper than current prices, or they will be far more serviceable and modular.

In the future, I hope the Segway design/idea still becomes part of the transportation revolution. It would be great if all autonomous Uber cars had a Segway carrier on the back. An electric, driverless "taxi" shows up at your house, you load your Seg/Ninebot/etc. on the back, and then head off to your destination. Maybe someday!
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Old 08-09-2016, 08:57 PM   #19
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That means there have been a LOT of Segways going unused because of battery problems.
Or, there have been a lot of Segs which were unused, which led to battery problems.

Good luck with your rebuild!
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Old 08-09-2016, 09:13 PM   #20
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I wonder If we will see the same thing with Tesla's Model 3. Are consumers going to want to pay $13,000 for a new battery in an 8-year-old car? I highly doubt it. I'm guessing the brains behind Tesla realize that, too. The batteries will either be WAY cheaper than current prices, or they will be far more serviceable and modular
I agree that a 10-year old Tesla is unlikely to find a buyer if they have to fork out $13k for batteries, but people aren't buying Tesla's current (ha!) offerings because they are a good value. 10 years from now, it will have to be different, if Tesla survives the thinking behind releasing Autopilot beta software into the field.
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