Revive Three Segways! Dying batteries
 

I have been asked to explore the possibility of reviving the batteries from three Segways which have been left for one year. They were stored with full batteries but have not had top ups.
I found some info' for a company in Australia that specializes in reviving Segway batteries but we are in Holland and unable to surface mail our lithium batteries.

We our getting this light sequence:

Segway one: solid red light, flashing green light
Segway two: single flashing green light
Segway three: single flashing green light

I wondered if anyone knows of a company in Europe that can revive (or attempt to revive Segway Lithium batteries.

Many thanks in advance.

From what I understand, reviving batteries is simply a matter of bringing the pack voltage above the LVC (low voltage cut-off) by supplying voltage to the main battery terminals. If the pack voltage can be raised above the LVC, the on-board charging and battery management system will then charge and balance the pack as needed. It's not a terribly complicated process, but caution needs to be exercised, and it helps to have an understanding of the theories involved with balancing lithium battery packs.

In the ideal world you would be correct. If that is done and there is failed cells within the pack there can very easily be a fire. You also risk potential damage to the BMS depending upon how you accomplish this task.

SanFairyAnne, please email [email protected] regarding this need. We have a few customers in Europe with our lithium battery reconditioners. We would be happy to introduce you to them.

I'm curious. With all the hoopla going around right now about Lithiums catching fire and burning down houses and cars, has there ever been a documented case of a Segway battery actually catching fire? Got a link to an article about it?

I own two electric cars with Lithium power and I know car makers have gone to extraordinary lengths to make sure their batteries don't catch fire as that could very easily burn down your house if they are stored in a connected garage. Segways are probably stored indoors 95% of the time too - Has a Segway ever burned down a house? Seg batteries seem to be engineered with safety as the #1 priority - I know it's easily possible to get at least twice the power from the 18650 form factor batteries that they use, but it appears Segway resisted the temptation to go for the extra power/range in favor of building a nearly bullet-proof battery pack. If only they had incorporated an On/Off switch so you could store the machine for a year or two without needing to plug it in. My electric car can sit at 1/4 charge for two or three years if need be without harm - They actually recommend having the battery at 1/3rd to 1/4 charge if you're going to leave it sit for extended periods

Don

I've wondered the same thing. I think it is highly unlikely the Seg batteries would catch fire. They are, literally, "bulletproof." I remember a Valence Saphion promo video where they shot the cells with a gun. No fire. Regular lithiums burst into flames. So, I'd feel OK in using the voltage supply trick on a pack that still has Saphion cells, but I wouldn't be as confident If trying it with a rebuilt pack. Some accounts I read in which individuals revived their own packs said it only took a matter of minutes of supplying voltage to a dead pack (showing less than 10 volts) to bring it back up to a "chargeable" state.

Also, as Jason from MTO mentioned, even successfully reviving a pack doesn't mean that it doesn't have bad or degraded cells. It may have a couple bad ones but is still perfectly useable. For how long becomes the question. It's amazing that a lot of these Segway packs that are ten years old are still kicking. It's a testament to how well the cells and BMS are engineered. But as Don mentioned, the only way to store the Seg unplugged is to remove the batteries. Otherwise, they risk that early/untimely death.

Many thanks
 

Thanks for all the useful information. I passed it on to my employer and expect them to seek a revival service from a Dutch Segway retailer.

I know a gentleman in Maryland who had his P-133 literally blow up when he unplugged his seg. The NiMH cells vented while charging and the gases built up inside the base. When he unplugged the cord from the csb he got that small spark that we have probably all noticed and it ignited the gases. (Special note: these were not rebuilt batteries). The platform was bulged upward a few inches upward from the pressure that built up inside the base and of course nearly everything was a loss on the Seg. Bottom line, it's possible with any battery chemistry. Nobody ever wants to experience it or hear it but it does happen.

I remember that video. What everyone shoudl consider is that Saphion is just a brand of lithium iron phosphate battery. It is no different than Coke being a soda. In fact, any UN38.3 tested/approved lithium iron phosphate battery will do exactly what you saw in the video. Our rebuilds react the same if punctured. In the end Saphion cells aren't any safer than the ones we use in rebuilds but rather it is a name that was marketed quite well. Lithium iron phosphate is certainly a "safer" chemistry of lithium than lithium cobalt or lithium manganese etc..

I also wanted to clarify my statement since your reply made me question whether I was clear enough in what I wrote. "Even successfully reviving a pack doesn't mean that it doesn't have bad or degraded cells". That part I agree with. I do not agree that a pack with a few bad cells is perfectly usable or safe. In many cases the BMS would restrict use based upon dead/inferior cells. Be well!

I never considered the possibility that Saphion Technology actually manufactures the 18650 cells used in Seg batteries - So do we know this for a fact? When you tear apart a Seg battery, are the cells themselves labeled as being a Saphion product? If so, my hat is certainly off to them. Got a picture of how they are labeled?

I always assumed they were the company chosen to implement the technology chosen for the Segway branded battery packs. The battery is the lowest part of a Seg to keep the center of gravity as low as possible and that location subjects them to all sorts of abuse - Hitting rocks or a curb when someone goes off course and yet we seldom if ever hear about the battery pack presenting a problem after such abuse. When I hear of 787's catching fire, hoverboards flaming away in a mall or cel phones blowing up, I'm even more astonished about the remarkable record compiled by Saphion Technology packs over the past 10 or 12 years. Ever had a power tool or computer battery last you ten years? There are threads here on the forum about owners who have gone more than 10,000 miles over 6 or 7 year span and are still getting 16 or 18 miles of range out of their original packs!

You always think technology marches on and products keep getting better and better, yet I think pretty much anyone selling *anything* with a lithium battery in it would be very happy to have Saphion's safety record to brag about - What a remarkable product they continue to make!

Don

Valence manufactures the cells. Yes, it is confirmed and it is even printed on the battery label on the case of the battery. I have found that the newer products have not proven to be as durable as the older batteries. Over the past year I have seen plenty (at least 200+) of the newer Rev.AH and Rev. AJ batteries in with severely failed cells . Some even with the cell housing physically coming apart at the positive end. When we take apart older batteries that are 12-14 yr old we VERY rarely finding such things. IMO, they were a much better product in the past than they are in the present day.

I attached a photo that was just taken a few months ago, I would have to look to confirm but I am fairly confident this was a Rev.AJ that was about 1yr old. You can see on the tabs there is heat damage to all the tabs and most of the cells started to vent. The one cell even had the positive cap blown open. The heat damaged tabs did not start until Rev.AH and continues to be a problem in Rev.AJ. I'm hoping that it gets corrected soon.