Toyota Winglet - "Segway Killer"
 

Toyota just revealed what some are calling a Segway killer, see link at http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/08...shiba_winglet/.

Segway was always afraid that some huge company would steal their thunder and come out with a rival product, but I don't see this being in the same category. With a top speed of only 6 Km/H, range of 5-10 Km and a footprint of 10.4X18 inches, this will be literally seen as a replacement for walking, though the rationale is that it's meant for being used in large crowds (rush hour in Tokyo, anyone?). I do like the fact that one of the models is entirely hands free, though. Thoughts?

Not A Threat
 

I agree, I don't see these as a threat to Segway, at least in this form. 3mph may be fine on ultra crowded sidewalks, but how many of us would have bought our units if they only went that slow? With such a short range, and such a long time to reach it, they are going to have one VERY limited market. I wonder what type of batteries they are using, and how they plan to distribute the units? Can you see going to a Toyota dealer and having the usual "school of sharks" (car salesmen) running up to you and then finding out that they have to spend an hour selling you one of these mosquitos and giving up a shot at selling someone a high commission Prius?!?!

probably not for outdoor use
 

The wheels are so small that the slightest bump would trip it up.
I'll bet it's target is the indoor market place.

Short handles, specualation is that 2 are for sitting due to short handles, frankly its more likely they are for kneeling. The 3 MPH thing makes no sense to me at all, if I was stuck at 3 MPH on my Segway, I would eventually step off and throw it in the nearest lake out of frustration. As you guys mentioned, this could work in China mayeb, but Toyota is a global company. Only thing I can say positive is the silver one is a cool design.

Oh, when I first read the article, I was excited thinking there might be something cooler out for the Segway. Sadly, we can only hope this will drive down the price of the Segway eventually.

Take a look at the video: http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/01/t...y-we-dont-know ... the ones without handles are still ridden standing up. It looks kind of neat but with such a slow speed its target market will likely be elderly and disabled in shopping malls and airports. I can maybe see large entities like that buying several and renting them out.

They're more like Toy-ota Wingnuts...

They did not appear nearly as stable to me, particularly with the smaller wheels and tight turns. I wonder if they have an off road model?

there is a kind of suspension ... but I have a little hard to believe that it is for an environment tarred because of bumps and hollows. [xx(]

Well, okay ... tokyo / kyoto or airports, it passes without problem because the soil is smooth and perfect. ;)

I think the segway already difficult terrain dented (not to mention the automatic slowdowns because of loss of sensors on the segway) :D

I agree this is no competition for Segway, although I could see people having both. For instance, it will probably be much lighter, so haul it in your car and it would work great for an evening at the mall. A Segway works great as well, but for non disabled riders, many malls do not allow them in because of the silly notion that people may speed around and cause trouble. Well at 3 mph you have a solution.

It may also be a good rental for heavily condensed shopping areas as well. I think many would much rather prefer a Segway and this can not get you places like the Segway can, but for certain scenarios it would make a decent device. Only problem I have is some one the models will attract attention to your crotch area! People may get the wrong idea!

"Competition" or no, certainly several dozen patent infringements.

Should be "fun" to watch.

A true "Last Mile" device.

At the right price, Toyota will sell zillions.
Why? Because they know how to sell things.

And its no competition for the Segway because Segways were never legal in Japan. Too big and fast for their sidewalks. Can't compete with something that never made it out of the gate.

Sony holds a patent.
Sony/Toyota has very deep pockets.
Sony/Toyota can squish Segway Inc like a bug.
Not fun to watch at all.

Sony holds a patent dated in 2007 for a similar self-balancing design. LLC's patents clearly precede that date by many years. The Winglet also appears to utilize a varient of Segway's Leansteer technology. It will be interesting to see if Segway can make some money off Toyota for some much needed cash.

Sales of other EPAMDs are a good thing, IMHO. I would like to see more disabled & elderly using similar devices all over the world. Having a bit of market competition is a good thing. I like the idea of very small, portible mobility devices and I like the suspension system built into the Toyota platform. This is actually all very good news for EPAMD owners the world over.

It's just a matter of time: widespread adoption of personal transport is an inevitability. If it's not Segway doing the innovation and marketing-- someone else will.

SEGsb

It's still in development, so this is like a "concept" car, or "vaporware" as the computer people call it.
They seem to have learned some lessons from Segway
- Go in with deep, deep pockets
- Keep the speed low, at first, to sell it to the legislators as harmless
- Style them well, take away the "dork" factor that Steve Jobs (the best "cool" marketer in the world) identified right from the start.

They also seem to be relying on developments in battery technology to keep the form factor small. But these are the guys who sell the Prius and have Matsushita Electric aka Panasonic working with them.

The big question is marketing and pricing. If they do it aggressively then Segway will have a challenge. And I personally don't think it would be a bad thing. Dealing with legislation, marketing, and pricing are the three big failures of Segway Inc in my humble opinion.
____________
Dwight

I don't know about that, John. It might be a viable Last Mile device for the disabled or the elderly, but for able-bodied individuals, I don't really see the benefit to a device that literally only moves as fast as somebody walks.

I remember the original online marketing materials for the Segway when it came out... they showed a map demonstrating how far one can walk in a certain amount of time, versus how far one could Segway. When the Last Mile can be traversed in 5 minutes by Segway versus 15-20 minutes by walking, that's a big improvement. But when it's the same time....

Toyota/Sony could make a generous offer to buy out all the shares of Segway Inc's investors, buy Kamen's patents for more money he'll ever make building EPAMD's and pay for it all out of their petty cash account. Then shut down the Bedford assembly plant forever. Like I said, squish.

Remember Pearl Harbor.
JohnM, SDPHS #3786

The benefit is simple: You don't have to walk a mile.

I think that INC has done a remarkable job with legislation. While there are some hold-outs (especially at the local level), 43 states have specifically embraced Segways. I don't think that bookies would have accepted those odds in 2001. INC has done such a good job, in fact, that many local authorities are surprised to learn that Segways are legal in their state :).

As long as the competition sticks to INC's usual definition of a EPAMD (electric powered, self-balancing, two non-tandem wheels, designed to carry one person, max 15mph), they'll greatly benefit from the trail-blazing that INC has done for them with respect to legislation.

This is true. But at least Segway owners can deflect the "you're so lazy!" arguments by pointing to the speed gains, and how this isn't a replacement for walking but for driving my car. There is no way to refute such arguments on a Winglet.

I don't know, I have never met Dean personally nor talked to him on the matter in any form, but I like to think that the Segway is his baby. I like to think that he holds on for reasons other than financial, given as he certainly has the money to. I like to think that he would not sell the patents and shut down Bedford no matter what the price.

I could be very wrong here, and I know there are people here that actually know him. Please do shed some light on whether my thoughts of him are right or wrong!

at some point in time there will be another segway like product which may or may not be better - too many people here seem to bash any possible newcomer without any real info, mostly speculation. while I am a devout segway supporter, inc could be in one of toyota's or sony's bathrooms and no one would notice.

The lack of any real competition so far has been due to what appears to be a very small market.

Or is the very small market due to what appears to be the lack of any real competition?

I look at the sales to ATVs, snowmobiles and PWCs, devices used by 99% of their owners as toys, then look a the sales of Segways, a device with more practical uses as well as a high fun factor and wonder what went wrong.

Zillions? I have to disagree, at least in its current form. It doesn't seem like it could handle even very small changes in terrain (up anyways), and it is too slow. They know how to sell things but I think quickly the word would get out that it is simply to limiting to be on one. The Only advantage seems to be that you're not walking. I wouldn't think that would be enough to sell zillions. I think even the elderly would be disappointed with its speed.

Toyota Fibs
 

My bet is, Toyota is fibbing about the speed and range, because there is no mass market for that slow a vehicle. Possibly they plan to offer it in the trunk of one of their cars. They are probably trying to keep Segway off their back re patents until they have some experience. A greater worry is, what if Toyota buys Segway ? You might HAVE to buy a car to get a Segway.

The segway p133 is a true last mile device, a small, portable, and most importantly, capable device. With it's tiny wheels and limited speed I wouldn't trust the winglet on anything other than smooth flat ground which is what you will encounter .003 percent of the time during average use as a last mile device. Were the p133 to be re-introduced at a lower price point, the winglet would be rendered nothing more than a mere trinket for Toyota fanatics.
-segsurfer

Pearl Harbor, This Ain't...
 

Leave it to Toyota to bring a slingshot to a gun fight. Are you freakin' KIDDING me? Have you SEEN the videos?? This thing is a gnat!!! Elderly transportation??? I'm thinking NOT! I'll gladly put that TOYota thingy next to a Segway, and let my older customers choose which one they want to try. Hint: I have yet to break the half century mark, and half a lifetime ago I used to just LOVE sidewalk surfing. Now skateboards scare the "HE-double-hockey-sticks" out of me! And this thing isn't much bigger.

I'd love to ride my Segway next to one...in reverse! It has about the same top speed going forward as a Seg has in reverse. And I'd dearly love to see one of THOSE go off a curb! I'd try it for them, so long as they will bring the broom and the dustpan to pick up all the parts. I really hate cleanup duty.

"Segway Killer"??? I love the descriptions. They really want Segway to fail, and some are even inferring that Segway sales are dwindling; yet anyone that has spent any time at all researching tight lipped Inc. knows that just the opposite is true. So WHY are people cheering this thing (follow the links to the blogs) as the Segway killer??? This is one vehicle that the Japanese got wrong. Waaaay wrong. Look at your Segway: Right product, right time. Period. The one that we got right, and they got wrong. Yes, as some have said, Toyota sells the heck out of its products, but only the good ones. If the "Killer" is the best that they have to offer, they are about to learn what it's like to be in the junk business. Though I might buy one; I'll hang it from my lean steer like a pair of fuzzy dice from a rear view mirror in a '57 bChevy!

I think its got potential, but not in that form or speed. I would however expect Toyota or Sony to have something better than this.

In its current state, size, etc., I don't see it even interfereing with Segway at all. What if they were to put larger diameter wheels on it and got greater speed as well as mileage with them, Would you want one then? Would it interfere, maybe...

I agree in its current state it is not a threat to Segway. But perhaps being Segway is now public they could or would introduce a competitor (wingnut) just to drive Segways price down and if they too own stock it means more money for them as well, eh?

I still don't think I could trust a hands free model, bump, "ouch", what happened? At least with the handlebars you got something to hang onto even if it goes down with you.

Comparing apples with apples
 

http://forums.segwaychat.com/attachm...0&d=1217649555

If you want to compare the current version of the Winglet with a Segway, then perhaps this is the version that you should be comparing with rather than an i2

The point being that the Winglet is a prototype machine and will undoubtedly evolve into something more refined...........

From the photo taken by Stuart Bloom of the "Ginger Museum" poster, SegFest 2004.

If you compare the Segway to ATVS snowmobiles motorcycles and PWC's it is clear to me what went wrong.

The Segway has three major deficiencies that prevent mass acceptance.
1: It is a personal transport device that is not intended to transport more than one person and a very limited amount of cargo. Most of the above toys will carry two people on one device.
2: The battery had/has a limited range and once depleted needs hours to charge. No bringing a can of gas to refuel.
3: Lets face it it is relatively SLOW. People like speed and the wind in their face. Now I understand why it is limited to 12mph- without that it would not get legal approval to use sidewalks and paths but it lacks that macho speed experience that young males with extra money like to feel and take their girl friends out for rides on..


Anyway the Winglet is I agree a real joke. It's like they tried to miniturize a Segway. The wheels are to small and obviously the battery is too small to have any range. It doen't look usefull or durable or even safe. I'm thinking it is all plastic construction. I see it going nowhere.

However I am encouraged that people are starting to seriously consider such devices in various situations. The Segway was ahead of its time, perhaps now that time has arrived.

Here is some more info on that winglet. 3mile range at 3 mph.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080801/...toyota_robot_2

The smaller, harmless looking profile of the Winglet will help it in being accepted into ultra-dense urban environments. How is size an advantage over the current incarnation of the Segway?

The i2's wheels freak a lot of people out. They don't see the rider on top, they fixate on the "HUGE" looking wheels on either side, and assume that it must be highly dangerous to others. Think of it this way: If skateboards had wheels as large (or even half as large) as the i2, they would be far less tolerated on sidewalks then they are at present. So, no huge social upswell of support for Segways, cause they appear scary to the ignorant masses in close quarters.

But the small size of the Winglet, is key to winning political and social acceptance of this particular device. Clearly, the end goal is to sell faster, more capable machines, so this baby-step paves the way for the appreciation and understanding of such mobility devices in their culture. It's a very well thought out plan, if you think more long term.

In the near-future, the ability to quick charge the device when it's parked, coupled with advances in small scale energy-dense storage, will allow the Winglet far more capabilities then you're seeing now. Autonomous motion was one example mentioned as a future feature; to pick riders up. Remember the range of the original Segway? It wasn't very impressive, or thought to be terribly useful to anyone... It was deemed an overpriced toy, basically. But that's changed quite a bit in a rather short time.

Don't underestimate the long-term plans Toyota has for their device...

SEGsby

You do have a point about the size of the Winglet, when I first saw an i series in person, it did seem pretty big...before seeing one in person, I thought the i series were about the size of a p133. Personally, the size of my segway doesn't bother me because it reminds me that I'm harnessing the power of technology to convey me from place to place. Even after 300+ miles, I still get a rush when traversing obstacles that I know I would be incapable of traversing on my walker or staffs.
-segsurfer

I tend to think that if you were to take one on the road, it would soon become an 'off road' model.

http://idata.over-blog.com/1/49/49/4...-WINGLETx3.jpg
more pictures and video on "Segway in Paris" http://www.segway-in-paris.com/article-21674908.html

Of course I'm getting e-mail from everyone I know, with a link to a Toyota article. They are doing a good PR job.

OK they are starting to look cooler but they wouldn't be for the masses, at least here in the states. I would much rather have a Segway.
I was looking at the videos in Segway in Paris link above and did notice in the first video of the three, which I hadn't seen yet, showed me something that I have wished Segway could have done with theirs. If you go to the 44 second mark and watch carefully you will see what I'm talking about. The platform tilts as you turn, but am not sure the wheels don't to. This is one improvement that the Segway could use. Anyone agree?

Yes and no.

It does seem like it would be quite a nifty feature and "feel good", too, but to accomplish this would take a lot more parts and programming which would add up to more cost and less reliability.

All in all, I don't think it would be worth it.

wow that babble fish program really butchers english

The only thing I see that's worthwhile in the winglet, is the bubble sideskirts that cover up the outside of the wheels and would help avoid the nasty falls when a segway newbie brushes up against a wall.

:D Agreed.