Ninebot Elite problems
 

my Ninebot Elite died on me yesterday with no warning and still 3 bars on battery and I had only went 50 yards when it cut out ended up in A&E with a broken arm and badly bashed face!

There is no stick shake or warning before it shuts down?....Thats nothing like a real Segway if thats true!

No warning at all

Attachment 2492

One of the less understood aspects of the original HT and PT Segway models is that almost everything important to staying upright has a level of redundancy. I do not know whether the new "Segway" products have such redundancy, but I do not think so.

Although Segway riders drove into walls, into each other, fell on ice, snow, and wet grass, very few Segs actually failed and dumped their riders. I think I recall one, maybe. Without redundancy, this record will change.

The importance of redundancy may not be obvious to some folks, until they think about it.

Redundancy allows one "half" of the intelligence to monitor the "other half". If the "other half" goes away (i.e., quits working), then the half that's "alive" can institute a stick shake, noisy warning, and reasonably-gentle shutdown.

Without redundancy, if it dies, it dies.

System redundancy has been my concern with the Chinese models since the beginning, and I posed the question several times. Seems we now have some evidence...

Very sorry to see someone get injured like this...

@Pob1970

Geez! That does not look good at all ...
I hope not also the cheekbone was injured (it looks so).

Best wishes for a fast recovery from Germany!

Been in touch with Ninebot and they want me to ship the unit to Germany to check the pcbs but can't find someone to ship it the parcel companies say segways are prohibited so will have to get back in touch with Ninebot

Cheek bone not fractured but very bruised spread right down face

Transport problems are often caused by the batteries. Although one could expand the batteries and send the rest normal, but I believe that will bring in the present case nothing. It is also about liability and argument. So if the device can provide proof of an accident, I would never send it to the manufacturer's premises, but I would have it examined by an independent expert. Already, the public interest is very large, so the manufacturer's test result is already established.

I could write here now that the manufacturer will answer something like that: "We have the PCB's checked and can not find any error. Your fall must therefore have been a driver's fault.". But of course I do not write such a thing here.

Nice that the cheekbone remained intact. I wish you continued good recovery.

Your injuries are certainly troubling, and the first concerns, of course. But what next? It might be wise to not blindly follow Ninebot's directions.

The first question (about what to do next) is - what is the current status? Is it still "dead"? Or does it now seem to work? And are the batteries still in the same state or has it been recharged?

Do any of these modern day Segway 'copies' use more than just a single battery? Part of the dual system redundancy is the fact that there are two of everything which is important to remaining upright, including two batteries so if one were to malfunction, the other will bring the machine to an upright stop

I do agree that sending the machine to the factory representative will get you nothing - They will benefit because they will use their examination to craft an argument that the incident was all your fault and not the fault of the machine. If you are considering any sort of legal action, speak to your attorney first and the proceed on his recommendation which I would imagine will include an objective third party inspection of your machine and not sending it directly to the factory

So sorry to hear of your injuries - Do you plan on riding this machine again?

Don

No the battery has been recharged and switches on

Haven't decided for sure yet if I'm going to ride it again when my arm is fixed think I will be to nervous

OK - that means that any "evidence" has been lost.

Yes, due to lithium batteries problems transporter say no to transport segway.
but new models of segways are good,they are with UL certified batteries.

May be transpoter start transporting segways.

INSTANT power cut
 

Hi,

I just bought a Ninebot Elite second hand and my battery went flat after just 8km with 4 bars remaining but it vibrated and shook with Error 37 so I walked it home. Plugged it in to charge for 10 seconds then it was all good again.

I took it to the carpark to test with 4 bars and then with ZERO warning I lost ALL power and fell backwards and opened up my elbow.

Now, being an electrical engineer I decided to NOT charge the battery and open it up. The Ninebot Elite does have 2 battery packs. Each battery is 15s2p with their own BMS onboard. I found that the BMS had tripped on both battery packs which left the system with 0v to try and balance me.

After a few weeks of trial and error, I tracked down the problem to 6 bad cells on BOTH packs. I replaced all the cells and am now getting a much better 17km range and I can safely get down to 2 bars where it limits your speed to 7km/h and then nothing.

So moral of the story is that it IS INDEED possible for the system to cut ALL power with no vibrating, stick shake or beeps, just BOOM no power. Honestly, after looking at the poor LG battery cells they use in the 450Wh packs and the poor SAMSUNG cells in the 670Wh packs, what a terrible decision. Each time they have gone for the cheap low AMP cells, where for an extra $0.30 per cell ($18) they could have put REALLY good LG or SAMSUNG cells like the Samsung 30Q.

But anyway, the fact they have separate BMS inside the battery box that can be triggered without being controlled by the motherboard is a bad design. I would much rather the battery get hurt by dropping under 3v than my elbow or worse. Rather than limiting current, they use a really cheap MOSFET cut design. Looking at the BMS it's no different to a cheap $15 BMS from ebay

non redundand = unsafe
 

hi there

In Switzerland every selfbalancing vehicle need to be fullredundant.
everything else is forbitten.
Of cource we can ride the real Segway PTs.
NineBot Elite, Mini Pro, One and stuff like this is forbitten to use!

Thank you for the comprehensive analysis. That information is extremely valuable. And, of course, may save others from painful experience.

A BMS inside the battery box that can be triggered independent of the Segway's motherboard is a good design. Lots of transportation requirements that large lithium batteries stay connected to circuits that protect them from abuse. Abuse that could cause fires.

Like having a fuse installed closest to the battery (it is inside the battery) instead of far downstream the circuit path.

That the Segway's motherboard didn't refuse to start up with such a low battery is the poor design. The battery's BMS and the motherboard have different ideas on what is a critically low battery?

It's not "startup" that's the issue. Assume that both batteries are sufficient to start and balance (4 bars or so). Now, get on and glide.

With the Ninebot, apparently each battery can independently shut off, without informing the "motherboard" that there's a problem - which should cause a warning and controlled shutdown. - just simply quit supplying power and let the "motherboard" notice that. Now, the other battery has a sudden increased load, and immediately shuts off power. No power, therefore no warning.

My dealer confirmed that the new models are not redundant - one of the reasons they're so much cheaper than the originals.

Hope you heal up quickly and find the cause for the shutdown.

I say "startup" because the motherboard had already thrown an error code and vibrated to tell the owner something was wrong. Owner charged it for 10 seconds and tried to use it again. Mother should have refused to start up with the battery in the same condition (+10 seconds).

How do you know what "condition" the battery was indicating at that time?

I think you are assuming that the batteries were indicating "off". (by not supplying voltage).

I am assuming that, having been briefly charged, and not under any load, the battery BMSs had reset and were supplying voltage. Indicating OK.

pcarlson79 said "Plugged it in to charge for 10 seconds then it was all good again."

Footnote:

A fuse inside the battery wouldn't be really good, either.

Now that mathiegi and terryp have confirmed the newer Chinese models are non-redundant design, I would never consider riding one. I wonder how long Ninebot will keep the redundancy of the i2 / x2 design in production....

If you say so.

Great question....Will they keep it and call them a Cadillac? or

Will they drop it to make it cheaper to sell?

To me it sounds like a bad business model in the court of law when someone gets a bad TBI off one, and they prove it was designed to be less safe to save money?

If a fuse inside the battery blows, how would you recharge the battery?

True.

You would have to send it back to a service center for repair. The cost and down time is still cheaper than another hoverboard fire, this time due to a shorted wire instead of overcharging.

Alternatively the BMS in the battery case would have overload protection or a user reset-able circuit breaker. I wonder what the UL rules are for power circuits. Suck up the shorted wire heat until the owner safely gets off, or shut down immediately to avoid a fire?

A fuse (internal or external) would only "blow" in the event of an overload - that is, excessive current.

Battery pack fires are usually caused by either physical damage to one or more cells, or catastrophic failure of one cell - which initiates catastrophic failure in adjacent cells, etc. Neither of those events would be stopped by a fuse.

Catastrophic cell failure may occur during charging - but charging is relatively low current, so the fuse wouldn't stop that either.

Of course, I do agree that having to send it back to the service center is far preferable than having a fire.

I am afraid NineBot will stop make great, durable and safe Segway PTs in end of 2018...
After only cheap and unsafe NineBot stuff will stay on the market.

I will do service and repair Gen1/2 und SE until i die...

This is all sad news. I absolutely LOVE stepping on my i2. In the past, I have wondered if original Segways will become collectors' items. To me, the i2 is an essential part of daily life. I'm glad I didn't spring for an Elite. I love firing up my i2 and knowing it will be ready to take me wherever I want to go. The Ninebots sound scary!

I guess most don't know, or have completely forgotten, these started out as cheap Chinese knock offs.....Got some success, Segway sued them for copyright protection and patent infringement.

Then Ninbot bought them off, and out!

It's about money, that's all.....If they can sell an inferior product and make a great profit, they will............If keeping the legacy of Segway alive and well, they will need to make a profit off the "classic" Segway....

You all should be well aware of this practice, it happens every day.....Cheap junk always wins...

Glad you like your i2. They look very comfortable.

Scary? Is it because people are comparing death and injury rates for Elites vs. x2's? I think people are trying to make Ninebots sound scary. As if Segway i2's, x2's, and such, haven't killed people and seriously injured others. Their high price has not made them safe as many have found out the hard way.

Advance tech in Ninebots can be frightening, for some. Modern electronics, new batteries, and brushless motors, mean Segway type devices no longer need cost $7,000 or weigh 100+lbs. It is no longer a boutique product bought by a small group of customers and the unlimited budget government.

The concerns are with the quality and safety tradeoffs made to reduce price and increase profit. For instance, as reported:

And consider units with only a single bettery.

These are quality/performance/safety/cost tradeoffs that the manufacturer made. Understanding them is helpful in evaluating purchase decisions.

The two guys "Pob" and "pcarlson" in this thread each said he had a Ninebot Elite. That model wasn't sold in the USA. I have a Ninebot PTR Elite Plus (sold by Segway USA). Ninebot's website claims that the Plus is redundant:

"Dual-Redundancy Supports Rider Safety
The safe operation of the Ninebot E+ relies heavily on the unit's dual redundancy. The unit's key features include two sets of components – one for standard operation and the other that remains on standby. In the unlikely event that a malfunction or failure occurs with the original components, the other will take over immediately. At the very same time, the rider receives an update on the unit's status. These types of safety measures are costly to implement, but at Ninebot, safety is our top priority."

Also, More4Mini.com, who is a Washington DC Ninebot dealer, also mentions that pcarlson's Error 37 means the battery has no charge, and that it may not happen on the Elite Plus. I would like to post the link, but SegwayChat won't let me. You can Google this to find it: Ninebot Elite Error 37

Jim Nichol

Ninebot Elite problems
 

does anyone know the easiest way to get these frickin solenoid pins out?

That statement makes absolutely no sense, technically. Try thinking of some component for which it makes sense. Batteries? Motors? Wheels and tires? Steering sensors? Balance sensors?

You don't want things on "standby". And, even if discussing electronic controls, there would be the question of how the "standby" component would know that the original component had failed.

And you certainly would not want a second battery to be on "standby".

There may actually be dual components, but if so they don't operate that way.

Semantics, perhaps. "Standby" is acceptable, as long as the standby systems kick in quickly enough to keep you upright.