Mini Pro rental tours
 

Just saw my first youtube video promoting Segway tours that use Mini Pros. Pretty funny since they are such little things. I image the tour operator following along on a full size Segway with a pair of mini pros strapped on the fenders to swap out if needed.

They were charging $25 for the 90min tour. Value would be the quality of the guide. Is that the going rate for full size?

How about when one of them fails and like a resent poster, takes a header and breaks there arm?
With out redundancy this is far more dangerous than a bike!

I will bet this owner has no idea the danger till its to late!

Where is this tour? And can you provide the link to the youtube video, please?

Always a possibility. Lots of people wear helmets and wrist guards on Mini Pros just in case.

I am sure it will look just like a full size segway crash. Like the video of the lady going to cross the street, on a tour, who clipped a bullard and went down. Or the camera guy, crossing a football field on a x2 segway (no handlebars), who ran over a football and went down.

I worry more about novices and the smaller Mini Pro's wheels. They aren't as smooth over obstacles, pavement heaves, roadside gutters. etc. Without ever riding a big segway, I think there would be more platform pitching and unexpected movements on a mini pro due to the 10" wheels.

I will repeat what I said.....There is no redundancy and these are far more dangerous than a original Segway....

If you dont get a warning how do you know your going head first over it?

YOU DONT!


Please look at this thread. http://forums.segwaychat.org/showthread.php?t=34957

First I saw it. However, it looks like the business has been going for a little while. Other videos have their earlier offers. They say minipro right on the video but I bet lots of people wouldn't know it is not the big segway since it looks the same with the handlebar kit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4XM59qdjBI

I kinda doubt it. Crashes on Segway tours are fairly rare because they are so much easier to ride - They rent them to 65 and 70 year old customers . . . . I can't imagine that with Mino-Pros. It's a recipe for disaster if they try

2 hour Seg tours in most cities are $60 to $90 depending on what else is included. We paid $75 in Nashville and the tour included entrance to 3 museums. We were novices then and had never set foot on a Seg and our tour guide was excellent!! She made sure we didn't ever get into a situation that might result in a dismount. Helmets are mandatory on every tour we've seen

I would guess Mini-Pro 'incidents' might be described as 'crashes' some quite possibly with injuries, whereas most Seg incidents would be better described as 'dismounts' where the operator doesn't always wind up on the ground. I think the odds of a face plant would be much greater on a Mini just because of the difference in the machines

Anyway, good luck to them with the Mini tours - I hope they make enough money to cover their insurance payments!

Don

I saw it. Fair enough that the lack of redundancy is a big issue for some people. I don't think it is far more dangerous. I don't worry about that specific failure mode when I ride.

I might have second thoughts if it shuts down and I spill my coffee :(

They seem to require a bunch of stuff before letting folks ride:

https://www.segintown.com/4dptdcp

(Number 5 of those lets me out - I don't have a smartphone).

And then, I'm confident that they require that folks sign a legal form saying they understand it's dangerous, and they won't sue the company.

That price seems good. I never encountered a tour company so I never tried one but thought it would be cool.

I don't see how mini pro tours will work given how cheap mini pros are to own. And, they are just not as capable as the big expensive segways.

I figure mini pro wrecks would look like the ladies at :23, 2:05, and 2:22.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DssxfC5ymU

Ah, that makes sense about the app requirement. The segway app has a beginners tutorial that restricts the mini pro's speed until all steps have been completed. 3mph limit, then 6 mph, then 10mph as the beginner demonstrates skills such as turning and stopping.

I wonder if the tours will help Segway sell units.

I'm not exactly clear why you keep referring to that thread. Are you aware that a Ninebot Elite is totally different from a MiniPro?

I don't have any proof that a MiniPro is safer than an Elite, but I have also never seen any proof that it isn't. Have you seen any sources that address this?

When you develop a new technology, you have to be very careful of the end result of any failures once you start selling them - If you don't, the public perception of your new gee whiz thing can turn 180 degrees almost overnight and the many millions you have invested are gone in an instant

For example, electric cars - Occasionally we read about a good ole gasoline car which catches fire in the garage and burns down the house - Doesn't happen very often, thankfully, but there was a problem with a brake light switch on a certain model that actually caused a few houses to go up in flames. If this happened even once to a newly marketed EV, the 'stain' on all EV's would be catastrophic and would set the industry back many years.

Three Tesla's caught fire as a result of an accident breaching the battery pack and the public was up in arms, calling them 'unsafe' even though not a single person was burned or killed - Never mind the fact that 17 gasoline powered cars catch fire every hour in the USA, killing more than 200 people every year. Public perception of anything new is critical and you've got to get it right the first time

Hoverboards - Everybody was tripping all over themselves to get the cheapest hoverboard on the market in time for Christmas not too long ago. Obviously, they cut corners everywhere they could to save money so they could sell their model for less than their competition. Various models caught fire all over the place and finally this month, one burned down a house and killed a three year old. Many recalls, but obviously the problem still isn't 100% fixed. I would NEVER have one of those in my house!

When Segways were first developed it became obvious very quickly that there was a real probability that almost any malfunction in the machine could toss the rider off and maybe even kill him/her depending on what they got tossed into. A product that they had hoped to bring in quickly and at a much lower cost became much more complicated as they sought to make it safe for anyone to ride. In the book, they relate how in the early development stage nearly everyone who tried it had an episode of getting tossed into a wall or worse

Back to the drawing boards! Each time they discovered any malfunction that could seriously harm the rider, they went to work to eliminate that possibility . . . . . and the complexity and price kept soaring. What they hoped would be simple and cheap to build so that everyone could afford one, making it possible to revolutionize personal transportation ended up being so complex and expensive that almost nobody could afford one - Just like the wheelchair that preceded it - Great wheelchair, but at a price of $25K there weren't many buyers. It had to be literally perfect . . . . if a wheelchair killed even one disabled occupant, the news would have literally shot down the entire project and every dime they had spent developing it would have been lost

What we got with the Seg was a very safe machine *because* they eventually found the only safe way was to have dual everything - If a failure of any single component or series of components could toss the rider into traffic, there are two systems so that when one fails, the redundant system can sound the alarm and safely bring the machine to a stop - Very few riders ever get tossed because the machine has a failure. You should be able to ride a Seg on only one battery for about 10 miles, but you can't, can you? For 12 or 14 years, Segs have built up a remarkable reputation as a very safe means of transport with few problems

'Segway' has been sold now a couple of times. What did the current owners actually pay for? Mostly that reputation, and now they're beginning to trade on it - They are making the cheap, affordable machine that Dean Kamen dreamed of and they're selling them for only a few hundred dollars - Why couldn't Dean have done that?

Mini-Pro buyers see the 'Segway' brand on it and assume it's built to the same standards as the machines that built up that reputation. If I didn't know a darned thing about the technology (and most buyers don't) I would see all these cheap Chinese attempts at building a $500 Segway-like device and steer clear of all of them, especially after seeing all the Chinese hoverboards catching fire, *but* when I see the Segway name on a $750 'personal transporter' I'm automatically impressed . . . . by the name, even if I don't have a clue exactly what I'm buying. Surely Segway wouldn't sell anything that's unsafe . . . . would they? They never have before

I hear "It's better than a real Segway because it only weighs 28 pounds and you can carry it with you" and I guess some people actually think that - All of the amazing Segway safety technology has been reduced to 28 pounds and $750. Truly remarkable!

Do you think they left anything out?

Don

I guess by personal experiance isnt good enough for you?...sigh

What personal experience? I could be mistaken, but I don't recall you ever mentioning owning, or even riding, a Ninebot Elite.

I think they left off the handle bars that keep you from stepping off it if it stops suddenly from failure or hitting an obstacle. Plus, they left off 3.5mph of top speed. Left off since 13.5mph has proven to be unsafe?

I never thought of Segways as safe. Plenty of news stories of those big powerful machines sending people to the hospital. Segway just promised good wire routing and battery management/charging circuits in their Amazon.com advertisements.

I thought of Segway safety as I took my Can Am DS450 ATV over some jumps by my house. Four wheels are the way to go if you want to be safe and have $7000 to burn. Think of the extra two wheels as redundancy. :)

Maybe riding on just two wheels is worth the risk? Risk for reward. Worth the risk for me as I enjoy having the mini pro that I can carry in one hand then toss it in my truck. Then ride it at an unexplored park while enjoying a refreshing beverage.

Yup - Sounds like a Mini-Pro is perfect for you!

Don

Your guess about the handlebar is not accurate. If the device hits a wall and stops, no handlebar will not let you step off, because a wall is there.

Your guess about the 13.5 mph being unsafe is not accurate. Segways went 12.5 mph as a max to start with, but they had models that topped out at 10 mph (133p) as an example. So the reduced top speed is not a safety enhancement, although each increase in speed requires almost exponential increases in difficulty. 10 mph safely is many times more difficult than 5 mph safely, not just twice.

If you never considered segways safe, good for you. We are all entitled to our own opinion. Stats say a lot. I think you may find mile for mile, or machine by machine, segways have less serious injuries than ATVs.

Since your profile says you never owned a segway, and you state here that you never found them safe, it all makes sense. Just that posting on a segway forum your opinions on items you never owned makes a difference.

Actually, the old Segway was purchased for its patents. Segway was suing a number of companies for patent violations. U.S. Customs was seizing products imported from other countries for violating the patents. The new owners got the patent rights, and Segway's reputation for reliability came along for the ride.

There have been injuries, to be sure, and almost every one of those was caused by the rider themselves, not the machine. Most ATV injuries are caused in the same way.

Maybe think of the old epitaph, "Hold my beer and watch this!", the next time you are doing jumps on your ATV.

DonM stated that Segways had a public perception of safe. As a card carrying member of the public, most of whom (like me) do not own a Segway, I stated that I never had that (thought of them as safe) perception of Segway devices. It was a rebuttal to his point. Didn't the public pass laws because they aren't considered as safe as DonM claims?

My understanding is that private owners can't ride segways on the Golden Gate but tour operators can? San Fran thinks they are safe?

Yeah, operator error. Part of the fun is learning what the machines can do and not do.

Forums and YouTube are good for this. Good, as you don't personally have to experience every pitfall to learn what the machine can't do. You can see other riders being sidelined and avoid their errors.

The epitaph I like is "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW-- What a Ride!"

Safe or not, the mini pro tours are interesting. Start a business with less investment than the price of a new midsize car. And you ride Segways for a living.

Yeah, that's exactly what happens to lots of folks alright! - Many of them at age 25 or 30 :p

One of the reasons it took so long to bring the original Segway to the market was they kept finding things that could possibly cause the machine to toss the rider off, so they went to work engineering a solution to those problems. The final result was a machine which is about as safe as a bicycle - When the rider ends up on the ground, 99.9% of the time it was an operator error and not something caused by the machine

There are all sorts of 'Segway Laws' around the country and I suppose around the world as well. Most any locality can pass a law and get it on the books without needing any real proof of anything. Some cities will allow you to ride bicycles on sidewalks and some won't - The bicycles are the same, only the location is different. Segway laws are similar and probably enacted for the same reasons. When you have the public walking at 2 or 3 miles per hour and someone operating a Segway or a bicycle at 10 or 12 miles per hour, the very real possibility exists that a collision may occur, especially since the 'vehicle' is silently approaching pedestrians from the rear and they have no rear view mirrors to warn them they are being overtaken

When we ride on sidewalks (and we do that a lot) we always slow to pedestrian speed and never attempt to pass until the pedestrian knows we are there - Once they see us, they almost always step to one side so we can safely pass

When you find 'laws' which say Segway tour operators are OK to use the venue but individual owners are not, it's usually to protect the tour business I suspect and not any indication that riders who own their own Segways are less safe - Actually, the opposite it true. As someone who first rode a Seg on a tour, I can assure you that many tour riders are people who have never set foot on a Seg before and many of them are barely able to maintain control, let alone take any evasive action to avoid a problem of any kind. After owning your own Seg for 6 months or a year, you are easily 10 or 20 times better at controlling it than you were on your first ride - Similar to you on your 4 wheeler I suspect

When you think about it, Segs must be pretty darned safe and fool-proof to enable tour operators to guide a bunch of often older rookies who haven't set foot on a Seg before the day of the tour. Many of them probably haven't even ridden a bicycle for the past 20 or 30 years. Yet they safely take to the sidewalks after watching a 10 minute video and getting a single 10 minute training session on the Seg. If you were 50 or 60 years of age and had never thrown a leg over a bicycle, you wouldn't be off riding the sidewalks after only 20 minutes of training!

For senior citizens, Segways are much safer and easier to control than a bicycle and I suspect most people would say the bicycle is a fairly safe device

Don

Insurance
 

I would love to know who ensures the minipro for tours

Look into insurance companies that specialize in insuring businesses. I think the business is insured for catastrophic loss, not the mini pros. Their damage and destruction is just part of the cost of doing business.

The onsite technician would be responsible for repairs, keeping the segways running, and keeping spare parts on hand (salvaged from other damaged mini pros).

I'm sure that's correct. The cost of a policy large enough to cover the death of either a rider or some person they run into would cost several thousand dollars a month, I'm sure - *If* you could even find a company willing to take on that risk. I'm sure you would need several million dollars of liability at a minimum and I don't think it would be easy to find any company willing to accept that risk without charging you sky-high rates

Don

Couldn't the same be said about these places that rent motor cycles and those mini looking cars and ATVs?

Maybe thats why there expensive to rent were i live?

If you're renting an ATV to ride in the desert or some other equally unpopulated area, I'm sure they can get by with a much different policy - Have the rider sign a waiver and the odds of him/her running down some unsuspecting pedestrian are much, much lower than someone riding on sidewalks populated with lots of pedestrians

There are all sorts of pretty dangerous things you can do where you sign an agreement acknowledging you understand participating in the activity could result in serious injury or even death *to you* and I doubt the insurance policy the vendor needs is terribly expensive. The greatest area of likely harm is covered by your waiver and there's not much chance you're going to harm someone else

We ride Segs on city sidewalks all the time and because they're so quiet, most of the pedestrians we approach from behind don't have a clue we're even there - Frequently it's a couple walking side by side conversing with each other. We slow to their walking speed 10 or 15 feet behind them and many times follow them for a hundred yards or more until they either notice us and usually they step to one side, or we wait until we get to a place where we can safely pass without alarming them. I can tell you not every Seg rider is that courteous . . . . they can go much faster than the walking pace and they don't like being held up. IMO, the probability of a rider knocking someone down is fairly high, especially if you pass someone at high speed when they don't know you're coming

Don

Insurance
 

The guy in Ft Lauderdale is running minipro guided tours and either does or does not have liability insurance. I asked him who is coverage is with and he refuses to say.

He has to be a licensed business to run those tours. To get the license to give rides to people, I would think liability insurance is required by the local government.

Two reasons to not give out your insurance information. First is to avoid people targeting him for a fraudulent insurance claim. A fake fall during his tour because they know he has high levels of insurance coverage and will easily settle out of court.

Airplane manufacturers have to carefully balance their insurance. Having too much insurance just attracts claims. Everyone wants to dip their cup in if you are found to have a large pot of gold.

A second reason would be not to help potential business competitors. Why waste your time?