A better way to get Segways on sidewalks?

[tsg]

Many people have mentioned they are trying to find ways to move faster on a Segway. How about slower?

A 6mph limit on the black key is arguably way too fast for a sidewalk with people on it. Perhaps if there were a key limited to 2 or 3mph for sidewalk use it would be an easier sell. Yes, you can go 2mph with the black key, but the concern seems to be users going too fast and hitting pedestrians or creating other problems.

The 'opponents' argue a great deal about the perceived dangers of Segway vs. Pedestrian, and discussions about increasing speed by the user communtiy will only feed that fire. I have seen very little discussion on how the Segway could be made to be and appear safer for sidewalk use. Arguing that it's just safe and should be allowed on sidewalks (and any 'environmental' benefits), doesn't put up much against the current opposition.

I am not a big fan of any sort of regulation or big-brother type oversight, but I would think mandatory insurance would be a good idea too.

[god1138]

tsg,

6mph may SOUND fast, but it's not. It's equivalent to walking with a spring in your step. It's not a threatening speed. 2 to 3mph would be a HUGE impediment to pedestrian traffic in my opinion - if it were to be limited to that speed only I'd think it would cause more problems and not less. On the HT, you have to be able to have some maneuverability in order to get out of the way of other pedestrians - thus, the slower the speed, the less maneuverability you have and the greater the potential for someone on foot to walk into you and cause a problem. Justifying the 6mph key (or the yellow at 8mph, for that matter) is almost a non-issue: most people I encounter don't feel threatened by the Segway at all, but embrace it and love it. No complaints there - going slower (by speed limitation through key regulation) is NOT going to make the Segway safer but may make it less safe in all actuality.

-Robert

My other car is a Segway!

[pt]

quote:Originally posted by tsg Many people have mentioned they are trying to find ways to move faster on a Segway. How about slower?

i ride my bicycle on sidewalks (in wa you can) and while i "could" go 30 mph, i don't. so like everything else it's good judgement, just because someone "could" go 6mph on whatever key doesn't mean they hop on and blindy barrel along. i also jog, i could run over 12 mph into people-- but i don't.

quote:Originally posted by tsg A 6mph limit on the black key is arguably way too fast for a sidewalk with people on it. Perhaps if there were a key limited to 2 or 3mph for sidewalk use it would be an easier sell. Yes, you can go 2mph with the black key, but the concern seems to be users going too fast and hitting pedestrians or creating other problems.

it's not "too fast"...it's context and relative to the specific scenario. around people, you need to slow down, just like riding a bike, walking, running, etc...

quote:Originally posted by tsg The 'opponents' argue a great deal about the perceived dangers of Segway vs. Pedestrian, and discussions about increasing speed by the user communtiy will only feed that fire. I have seen very little discussion on how the Segway could be made to be and appear safer for sidewalk use. Arguing that it's just safe and should be allowed on sidewalks (and any 'environmental' benefits), doesn't put up much against the current opposition.

quote:Originally posted by tsg I am not a big fan of any sort of regulation or big-brother type oversight, but I would think mandatory insurance would be a good idea too.

it's optional. last i check cyclists and joggers do not need insurance. ht owners have the option and a choice.

"safe" compared to what- is a good way to approach, there most likely be around 40,000 people killed by cars this year, over 3.2 million injured in or by cars...over 5,000 pedestrians.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[Sailor]

Also keep in mind that while 6mph is the top speed of the black key, you rarely actually go the true top speed because the speed limiter kicks in.

Even on the Yellow and Red keys I've found that it is rare to go the top speed on the sidewalk, simply because there are too many obstacles to go around, bumps to go over, and it would be disruptive to go the top speed.

Instead by transitioning between very slow and reasonably quick speeds, far under the actual limits, a Segway user can safely integrate herself/himself into the busiest sidewalk and still get to where they are going faster than if they were walking. When you actually ride the Segway down the sidewalk this comes intuitively. The ease of slowing down and speeding up, the amount of control Segway users have at slower speeds as well as faster speeds, combined with the extremely intuitive nature of the starting/stopping action causes gliders to ride responsibily almost without thinking about it.

For example, while I still think about when to turn, and where, I no longer give a single thought to when to slow down or speed up, it simply has become second nature, as soon as I see a situation in which caution is required I find myself going slower without even thinking about it, my subtle body motions of not leaning forward as much slows me down immediately.

[BruceWright]

Right now, the Segway is limited to 12.5 miles per hour. I can ride a bicycle faster without breaking a sweat, and it would be legal on the Sidewalks of my city, Los Angeles.

Looking to a hardware key to impose a slower possibility of a Segway means nothing if people don't use it, and I actually wouldn't use it, because it would limit my ability to move out of the path of danger when crossing the street.

I can walk faster than 3 miles per hour. I would just walk, rather than take a Segway.

Rather than seeking a technological barrier that is easily defeated by a user, I think we should seek laws governing safety. Laws requiring relinquishing the right-of-way. Laws requiring that users reduce to walking speed within 10 yards of any pedestrian or any blind situation.

Manditory insurance for an item that has never injured any pedestrain ever, is putting the cart before the horse.


Here's a story about the British Marathon champion who was struck and recieved serious injuries by a thirteen-year-old girl riding a bicycle.

http://sport.independent.co.uk/general/story.jsp?story=395373

Should 13-year-old girls on bicycles be banned? Should they carry manditory insurance? Should Bicycles have a speed limiter that keeps them to three miles-per-hour?

Far more people have been hit by the Millions, perhaps BILLIONS of bicycles in the world than the ZERO that have been hit by Segways.

Should we require manditory insurance for people on roller-skates, people in electric wheelchairs, people on Rascals, children with those little sneakers with wheels in the heel?

Arguing that they are safe, versus arguing that they aren't safe does not achieve the goal of an actually safe environment.

We have to test, discover and demonstrate the Safe ways of operating and regulating all forms of travel. The year-long study in Celebration, Florida of a high-density population of Segways in a mixed-use environment, with pedestrains, is a good step toward that.

There are over 100 Segways in a population of something like 3000 residents in Celebration. So that's a Segway for every 30 or so pedestrians. A much much higher mix than you are ever to see anytime before mass adoption.

So far, not one pedestrian has been injured.

I'm not saying that a Segway CAN'T injure a pedestrian. I'm just saying that the way to accomplish the goal of safety is by doing studies, not by discussion.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[JohnM]

pt,
Ever read the Seattle Municipal Code regarding bikes on the sidewalk?
This is an excellent guideline for Segway usage as well.
quote:
SMC 11.44.120 Riding on sidewalk or public path.

Every person operating a bicycle upon any sidewalk or public path
shall operate the same in a careful and prudent manner and at a
rate of speed no greater than is reasonable and proper under the
conditions existing at the point of operation, taking into account
the amount and character of pedestrian traffic, grade and width of
sidewalk or public path, and condition of surface, and shall obey
all traffic-control devices. Every person operating a bicycle upon
a sidewalk or public path shall yield the right-of-way to any
pedestrian thereon, and shall give an audible signal before
overtaking and passing any pedestrian.



124.8 miles on 4 AAs - 4/6/2003

[BruceWright]

That is great, John M.

I shall pass that on to any City of Los Angeles legislator I speak to.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[tsg]

It is with great disbelief that I read your post. 6mph is not "equivalent to walking with a spring in your step". Speedwalkers top out their average at around 5.5 miles per hour, and I would argue regular walkers only get to around 3mph tops. Electric wheelchairs already share the sidewalk, and they go 3mph. I haven't heard of anyone having an incident with one.

As far as "It's not a threatening speed", I assure you this has very little to do with speed. This is an issue of the injury/damage that can occur in the event of an impact. Newton's first law of motion, and the concept of inertia may interest you. Physics 101. An object moving at 6mph weighing in excess of 200lbs. colliding with and object stationary or near-stationary weighing <200lbs. would be a considerable incident. To argue there would be no difference if the Segway were moving 3mph than 6mph is nonsensical.

I would also point out the fact that the auto industry requires standards for 5mph impacts, which is slower that the black key maximum. While is has little to do with pedestrians, it goes to show that a lot of damage can occur at slow speeds.

As far a maneuverability, the Segway is MUCH more nimble at slower speeds. "...going slower... may make it less safe in all actuality."? I don't see how this could be true. As mentioned earlier, electric wheelchairs ALREADY share the sidewalk. They are set with a max speed of 3mph, for good reason: To fit in with walking speed of pedestrians.

Your arguments are good for discussion, but other than that I find them to be ridiculous and unsupportable.

That said, I hope you're not easily offended. Since you chose the name of 'god...' I will assume you won't be. :)

[tsg]

As I now see this topic is getting way off post - let's bring it back. The purpose of this was to offer an avenue that may provide more appeal to those locales that are of the opine that Segways would be dangerous on sidewalks. If these locales knew the Segway could be limited to pedestrian speed, perhaps they would be more open.

Citing what you can do while running and/or cycling really doesn't apply to a Segway on a sidewalk - and that is not my opinion, but the opinions of these lawmakers. I would wager they are also not concerned with how much restraint or control a Segway rider has, but with the potential for injury - specific to the speeds at which it can travel.

[pt]

johnm-

i cycle and belong to the state bike alliance, so i've not only read them i live them :-]

this has been posted by me a gajillion times, but the seattle (wa) code for the segway is the same....

{+ (6) A person operating an electric personal assistive mobility device (EPAMD) shall obey all speed limits and shall yield the right- of-way to pedestrians and human-powered devices at all times. An operator must also give an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian. Except for the limitations of this subsection, persons operating an EPAMD have all the rights and duties of a pedestrian.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by JohnM

pt,
Ever read the Seattle Municipal Code regarding bikes on the sidewalk?
This is an excellent guideline for Segway usage as well.
quote:
SMC 11.44.120 Riding on sidewalk or public path.

Every person operating a bicycle upon any sidewalk or public path shall operate the same in a careful and prudent manner and at a
rate of speed no greater than is reasonable and proper under the conditions existing at the point of operation, taking into account the amount and character of pedestrian traffic, grade and width of sidewalk or public path, and condition of surface, and shall obey all traffic-control devices. Every person operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or public path shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian thereon, and shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing any pedestrian.

124.8 miles on 4 AAs - 4/6/2003


http://www.bookofseg.com

[tsg]

As far as the insurance - I am aware it's optional. Had you actually READ the content of my post, I think it was clear. Again, it was a suggestion to mitigate the fears of those communities that currently want to ban the Segway, based on injuries or damages that 'could' occur.

[pt]

it's not that black and white, cars "can go" over 100 mph, but that doesn't mean we need to ban them from residential roads, control, potential for injury...all of that matters-- but the bigger picture is a little more important and the non-car choices we have or don't have. if we passed laws simply on the potential of injury which assumes we're all robots with no judgement, i'm pretty sure nothing would be allowed.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by tsg

As I now see this topic is getting way off post - let's bring it back. The purpose of this was to offer an avenue that may provide more appeal to those locales that are of the opine that Segways would be dangerous on sidewalks. If these locales knew the Segway could be limited to pedestrian speed, perhaps they would be more open.

Citing what you can do while running and/or cycling really doesn't apply to a Segway on a sidewalk - and that is not my opinion, but the opinions of these lawmakers. I would wager they are also not concerned with how much restraint or control a Segway rider has, but with the potential for injury - specific to the speeds at which it can travel.


http://www.bookofseg.com

[tsg]

Who the hell is talking about passing laws to ban anything, PT. Are you reading any of this? This was a simple suggestion for a sidewalk key - and all of you kool-aid drinkers turn it into some soapbox for issues that have very little to do with the original post.

Instead of discussion on the merits/flaws of a sidewalk 3mph key, your posts talk about bans and laws and how it relates to the big picture. And bicycles. And running.

Why not read the post - think for 30 seconds, then reply. This thread is, AGAIN, about having a slower key offering. Not mandatory use, not bans, not bike regulations.

[Sailor]

TSG, while you may have initiated the thread, you don't own it. The community of Segwaychat.com as a whole owns it.

If the conversation was supposed to be solely relegated to the issue of offering a slower key the initial post probably shouldn't have included statements regarding mandatory insurance nor brought up the discussion of whether or not 6mph is safe on the sidewalk. Bring up both of these hot topics and people will discuss them.....

[pt]

i don't think most folks are going to repsond to name calling and cursing if you want a real discussion.

here's the deal with a slower key, it doesn't matter. having a slower key isn't going to be the deal maker for a local law maker, because there is still the question of "how do we know what key, mandatory key check? how would it be enforced, a big blue light which shows which key one is on?" stuff like that.

here's another bike analogy, should bikes be made to go slower? so they can all go on sidewalks and have universal acceptance?

i think you should read the comments here and get an idea of where folks are coming from, many of us have hts, have gone thousands of miles collectively, have worked with our local and state officials and if putting things in context is drinking kool-aid atop a box of soap, then i like rockin' berry blue.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[tsg]

Sailor,

No one is claiming ownership, so you might want to relax a little. As the original poster, if I think the point has been missed or needs to be clarified - I can certainly say so.

Pt,

To place a blanket on the word 'hell' as cursing seems a bit drastic. I have read the posts, all of them. I know who you are. I have met some of you too, at training. The patronizing tones really aren't necessary.

If I offended any of you with the use of the word 'hell', or by calling some of you 'kool-aid drinkers' I apologize. As for the rest, I feel divurgent opinions will be fought with your last breaths, regardless of the thought or logic put into them.

You strive to be an insider's-only group, and many of you have appointed yourselves unreproachable 'authorities' on the subject of the Segway, and transportation in general. If you think that's a good thing, then my hat is off to all of you.

I however, disagree.

[RAG1247]

many people are ignorant of segways and at the same time afraid of something new. the point is to do everything possible to alleviate such fears and perceptions. where bicycles are already approved for sidewalk use, that is great for bicycles. however, where bicycles are prohibited for use on sidewalks, such prohibition will probably not change. if segways get banned from sidewalks by local governemtns, it will be hard to change. I expect that the majority of segway owners are courteous and mindful of how their segway should be operated in a sidewalk environment, particulary where heavy pedestrian traffic is involved. That however does not mean that all segway riders will behave accordingly. pt, municipalities are not concerned with the fact that you "ride" correctly, but with others who may not.

The current problem areas imo involve large cities with large numbers of pedestrians. Podunk, Iowa (if such a town exists and if there is a segway owner there) is not going to be looking at prohibiting segways; large cities fueled by organizations such as walksf will be. Everyone should read their website (search walksf) and see their hatred of the segway with information which is almost a blueprint and plan for others to follow in other cities.

I think 6 mph on a nyc sidewalk in manhattan would be way too fast unless it was in the middle of the night with no pedestrians.

In any event, it is important to convince city councils in any and every possible way that the segway can be a safe addition to their sidewalks and slower sidewalk keys may be helpful in this regard even if they were never used.

Richard
Ft. Lauderdale

If you can't change the people around you, change the people around you

[pt]

no one is an authority here we're all explorers, no one is striving for an insider only club, there are all sorts of people from all different interests. nothing is that big of a deal, the stakes aren't that high, we're all here to share and having fun.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by tsg

Sailor,

No one is claiming ownership, so you might want to relax a little. As the original poster, if I think the point has been missed or needs to be clarified - I can certainly say so.

Pt,

To place a blanket on the word 'hell' as cursing seems a bit drastic. I have read the posts, all of them. I know who you are. I have met some of you too, at training. The patronizing tones really aren't necessary.

If I offended any of you with the use of the word 'hell', or by calling some of you 'kool-aid drinkers' I apologize. As for the rest, I feel divurgent opinions will be fought with your last breaths, regardless of the thought or logic put into them.

You strive to be an insider's-only group, and many of you have appointed yourselves unreproachable 'authorities' on the subject of the Segway, and transportation in general. If you think that's a good thing, then my hat is off to all of you.

I however, disagree.



http://www.bookofseg.com

[Sailor]

quote:Originally posted by tsg

Sailor,

No one is claiming ownership, so you might want to relax a little.


Relax a little? I'm confused, am I calling people names, frustratedly using profanities/colloquialisms or otherwise acting excited?

[momentone]

2-3 MPH misses the entire point of Segway. Segway's mantra is: cover more ground, be more productive. 2-3 mph is walking speed. 6 mph is a light jog. The Seg is agile enough to go 2 mph when needed and break into a sprint just as quickly as a person. I would venture to say that those who question the wisdom of 6 mph on a crowded sidewalk miss the point -- you can't go 6 mph on a crowded sidewalk by definition... but when the crowd breaks, you can quickly adapt and "run". Further, the best way to have Segway adopted is to let legislative groups get on them and use them personally for a time -- not for 5 minutes, but for 5 hours. If I was Segway, I would be giving them away to the appropriate folks.

adios

[momentone]

Part II regards 5 MPH impacts for autos....

As part of my usual demo, I crash into people at full speed on the black key. Unlike any other vehicle, the Segway reacts to the impact by slowing down and reversing course. No one has been injured during this demo. In fact, the next part of the demo encourages them to crash into me.... most people flinch, thus stopping the Segway short of impact.

Then I have them ride over my hand and foot.

I would guess that those most concerned have never attempted these demonstrations of the Segway's safety aspects.

Regarding 5 mph tests of autos: I would not do that with an auto because it weighs, literally, a ton.



adios

[tsg]

Sailor -

You read me the riot act on post-ownership, and acted as if I didnt have the right to post as I did. That wasn't necessary. Also, acting as if my messages were profane is ridiculous. I assure you I am not excited, merely disappointed.

[BruceWright]

quote:Originally posted by tsg

It is with great disbelief that I read your post. 6mph is not "equivalent to walking with a spring in your step". Speedwalkers top out their average at around 5.5 miles per hour,



Speedwalkers, by definition, don't walk with a spring in their step. They keep one foot on the ground at all times. A spring would yield at least .5 miles per hour more.

quote:
and I would argue regular walkers only get to around 3mph tops. Electric wheelchairs already share the sidewalk, and they go 3mph. I haven't heard of anyone having an incident with one.

As far as "It's not a threatening speed", I assure you this has very little to do with speed. This is an issue of the injury/damage that can occur in the event of an impact. Newton's first law of motion, and the concept of inertia may interest you. Physics 101. An object moving at 6mph weighing in excess of 200lbs. colliding with and object stationary or near-stationary weighing <200lbs. would be a considerable incident. To argue there would be no difference if the Segway were moving 3mph than 6mph is nonsensical.



I don't disagree with your facts, though I do with your conclusion.

Would you be against a 500+ pound vehicle and rider going at 8 miles per hour on the sidewalk? What does Newton say about that?

Visit this link to find this "dangerous" vehicle:

http://www.rascalscooters.com/scooters/specialty_325.html

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

momentone-

those a great points, 6 mph in a crowded anywhere is a bad idea, so it's kinda a flawed scenario to start with.

those demos you posted have a powerful impact (no pun intended)...i've let folks bump into me, run over feet, etc...and of course i filmed my hand getting ran over. i'd never attempt this with a car as you mentioned for the obvious reasons.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[god1138]

Tsg - I want you to know I do not appreciate your tone with those here in this thread - I am pretty disappointed in the way you have responded to some of the thoughts here. You sure could use a nicer tone. We can always agree to disagree, and that's fine and dandy, but if you want discussion and want to share opinions on a topic, I suggest you be more cautious how you compose your replies. I detect a great amount of provocation in your words but I don't understand why you feel the way you do. The people in these forums have loads of EXPERIENCE with the Segway, and we really try hard to give informed answers. You asked, we responded. Not fair to bait us for advice and then get ugly because we told you how we felt.

Some notes: at a slower speed, you cannot move fast enough to avoid obstacles that may present themselves without warning. 3 mph is like crawling, and if you think that will get you out of a jam you should think twice. When I wrote that 6mph is not a threatening speed, I meant it. It is, for me, like walking with a spring in my step. Maybe I walk faster than most people (I do - long legs!), and maybe I'm drawing from my own experiences when I stated that. When I said it wasn't 'threatening' I was referring to the relative comfort that both myself and the pedestrians around me feel. No one, to date, has felt that I was out of control - no one was disturbed by my speed (or lack thereof).

I stand firm that if you limit speed to a lesser amount than 6mph, it makes you a target for problems. Having the ability to quickly move out of a troublesome situation is FAR more reasonable than setting oneself up for a sure incident. The Segway is much more nimble with a little more speed, not less. I tell you this from experience, tsg. You want proof of that? Look at the increased turning sensitivity - a trait affected by keys with HIGHER speed keys - and you'll know the Segway is capable of reacting incrementally based on those speeds. Having the ability to maneuver quickly is one issue, knowing when to use it is a completely separate one.

-robert



My other car is a Segway!

[RAG1247]

too many people are missing the point - do everything you can to show people that segways can be operated safely among pedestrians and change their perception - it has nothing to do with cars or bicycles since laws and statutes relative to such vehicles are already written in most places. if bicycles are allowed now in an area on sidewalks, the statute probably will not change. if they are prohibited that will probably not change either.

the fact that training is required is also important (although i think momentone was initially against training). After reading everything about california cities and the anti-segway groups, I doubt I would buy one if I lived in california, but luckily I don't.

I also don't understand that statement that you can't go 6 mph on a crowded sidewalk by definition?????

if you crash into a 78 year old lady with your segway walking on the sidewalk, she is going to go down and no doubt will be injured.

the anti segway group is pushing the fact that if segways are not on sidewalks, they cannot cause any problems





Richard
Ft. Lauderdale

If you can't change the people around you, change the people around you

[JohnM]

Some observations from the sidelines. (Actually from the street.)
1. Sidewalk speed limits are unenforceable. Even with special keys.
2. Sidewalk speed limits that target a particular class of sidewalk user would be challenged as discriminatory.
3. If the choice came down to a specific Segway speed limit or an outright ban on the sidewalks, a city council would make the easier choice. 'Kill them all and let God sort them out.'



124.8 miles on 4 AAs - 4/6/2003

[BruceWright]

quote:Originally posted by tsg

Who the hell is talking about passing laws to ban anything, PT. Are you reading any of this? This was a simple suggestion for a sidewalk key - and all of you kool-aid drinkers turn it into some soapbox for issues that have very little to do with the original post.



You posted a post about sidewalk acceptance, speed limitations and manditory insurance. Each of us responded as individuals.

When you called us Kool-Aid drinkers, were you referring to the Jonestown Massacre where 913 people died in 1978? Were you saying that because the people here posted ideas opposed to yours that they are followers of a cult, without thoughts or ideas of their own?

If so, I'm certainly offended. Please don't make light of mass-murder and suicide. That's way, way out of place.

There's no need for such name-calling and vitriol on a site which discusses a scooter.

If you'd like a website where you can call folks Nazis and Commies and Cultists and baby-killers all you want while discussing a scooter, I can recommend one for you.





-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[bicycledriver]

The major determinants of travel behavior are time savings and protection from the elements. Sometimes time spent working can be saved by using more affordable travel modes, or by avoiding expensive parking facilities. Sometimes travel time is reduced by avoiding the need to travel to remote parking. Absent these incentives, travelers will choose the mode that provides the fastest average travel speed. If car travel is faster than segwaying, most people who can afford cars will choose to use cars for most trips.

If two modes are roughly equal in travel time, the one with superior protection from the elements will generally be preferred. This is why automobile use is so much more widespread than motorcycle use for utilitarian travel. It is also why some people prefer to walk short distances with an umbrella in the rain rather than ride a bicycle with the added burden of obtaining a rain poncho and fenders.

If Segway travel is made slower, the Segway will have a harder time competing in the transportation marketplace against other affordable, compact, open vehicles such as electric bicycles. The novelty of the Segway's active balance system probably won't last long enough for it to be commercially successful unless it solves transportation problems better than the alternatives. The emerging generation of electric motor scooters designed for street use will be an especially challenging competitor to the Segway.

We already see many Segway drivers who operate in the roadway instead of on sidewalks in situations where they want to travel faster than would be safe on the sidewalk. If low sidewalk speed limits are created, the switch to roadway operation of Segways will be greater, or Segway use will decline in favor of other modes. Note that very few cyclists lobby for the legal right to operate on sidewalks; most politically active, competent cyclists work to preserve roadway access under all conditions because roadways allow faster travel at a given level of safety and safer travel at a given speed. It is ironic that some Segway proponents are willing to accept slower speed limitations for sidewalk access in states that prohibit roadway use of Segways whenever sidewalks are may be used instead. This approach seems like it would further narrow the Segway's niche market to those willing to move at pedestrian speed but who are unable or unwilling to walk.

-Steve Goodridge

[JT]

I think that the 3 mph key safety idea has a couple of flaws.

I feel that I am personally responsible for my speed. Therefore, my judgment should be the speed limiter and not the machine, just like my car, bike, or roller skates. I don't even consider using anything but the red key. I am used to the red key – inside or out. In fact, I almost fall off when I put in the black one because it doesn't handle the way that I expect.

Whether there was a 3 mph key or not, it still would be my choice to actually use it- so either way it comes down to the persons judgment. I think a better plan would be for security personnel to single out people who choose to act recklessly and deal with them rather than ‘limit’ everyone mechanically i.e., set a speed limit for the sidewalk and then enforce it.

[momentone]

Regarding training:

I did not go through the formal training offered by Segway. I do not think it has impacted me negatively. However, my thoughts about training have changed since giving loads of demos.

There are a few different kinds of new riders. In my experience, those who understand and trust the technology and know something about the Segway hop on and go, no problem. They probably do not need the formal training. Plenty of smart folks I know though would need the training. They are not as intuitive, and are frankly a little intimidated by the Seg. I would not want them on a sidewalk without training.

I simply found it so easy and intuitive to use that I assumed that to be the univeral case. It is not.


adios

[SegwayBill]

BMW's do not have speed limiters it is hoped that the driver shows good judgement. I live in NYC and ride on both streets and sidewalks I always use my red key. I keep my speed appropriate for each situation. It is about riding responsible for each situation. I do not jay walk when I am segging (most New Yorks jay walk) I try to set the example of legal behaivor.

Bill

[RAG1247]

god1138

you are correct that the higher speed keys have higher turning sensitivity - but it is also correct that such higher sensivity at higher speeds might make you flip.

another area that confuses me is why a lot of forum members seem to hide where they live and I think it is important since the locale that you operate a segway in is beneficial for others to know.

I am also confused as to the value of number of posts and color and quantity of stars (which only counts if you are a general) being displayed. From my reading of almost very post, it is the quality of the post that counts and not the quantity.

Richard
Ft. Lauderdale

If you can't change the people around you, change the people around you

[pt]

our bmw has a speed limiter...it's usually me saying "dear, please slow down" :-]

the post by johnm is accurate...if there's a choice between speed and a ban..well, a ban is the easy answer-- so i personally think that collectively our efforts are best spent on education as opposed to a slower key which steve g. did an excellent job listing wouldn't help at all.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[Blinky]

Don't forget the racewalkers (http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/hl/fit/card/speedwalking.html) who can travel up to 5-9 mph. So speed walking might be a little slow. Sorry if I derailed this topic a bit. I had to get at least one post in this one.

quote:Originally posted by tsg

It is with great disbelief that I read your post. 6mph is not "equivalent to walking with a spring in your step". Speedwalkers top out their average at around 5.5 miles per hour, and I would argue regular walkers only get to around 3mph tops. Electric wheelchairs already share the sidewalk, and they go 3mph. I haven't heard of anyone having an incident with one.

As far as "It's not a threatening speed", I assure you this has very little to do with speed. This is an issue of the injury/damage that can occur in the event of an impact. Newton's first law of motion, and the concept of inertia may interest you. Physics 101. An object moving at 6mph weighing in excess of 200lbs. colliding with and object stationary or near-stationary weighing <200lbs. would be a considerable incident. To argue there would be no difference if the Segway were moving 3mph than 6mph is nonsensical.

I would also point out the fact that the auto industry requires standards for 5mph impacts, which is slower that the black key maximum. While is has little to do with pedestrians, it goes to show that a lot of damage can occur at slow speeds.

As far a maneuverability, the Segway is MUCH more nimble at slower speeds. "...going slower... may make it less safe in all actuality."? I don't see how this could be true. As mentioned earlier, electric wheelchairs ALREADY share the sidewalk. They are set with a max speed of 3mph, for good reason: To fit in with walking speed of pedestrians.

Your arguments are good for discussion, but other than that I find them to be ridiculous and unsupportable.

That said, I hope you're not easily offended. Since you chose the name of 'god...' I will assume you won't be. :)



http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg

[BruceWright]

By the way, the Rascal scooter above weighs approximately 167 pounds. With a 450 pound rider (the top weight) at 8 miles per hour, old Issac Newton gives us an inertia of 4936.

A Segway rider of the top weight of 250, plus the 83-pound Segway going at 12.5 miles per hour gets us at 4162.5.

So the Rascal is the more damaging vehicle fully loaded at full speed.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[tsg]

Bruce --

"If you'd like a website where you can call folks Nazis and Commies and Cultists and baby-killers all you want while discussing a scooter, I can recommend one for you."

The term 'drinking the koolaid' has taken on a number of meanings, and is widely used. The inferences you've referenced - saying that in effect I am saying anyone is a Nazi, Communist, or baby-killer - are tremendously offensive to me.

I made my apology. To infer and/or imply what you did was ignorant and repulsive to the extreme.

Segway: Vehicle of Self-righteous ***

[BruceWright]

Time for some moderation.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream



edited:

Hey you removed the profanity from the name you called me!


Let's return to civil discussion please.

[RWC]

Anybody want to buy a puppy?




Take care, R.

[ftropea]

Hello everyone..

I'm pushing the 'Thread Reset' button here. Let's try to get back on topic :)

I don't see the point of a 2mph key for sidewalk use as there is no restriction on how fast people can jog/run around - and no 2mph restriction on motorized wheelchairs either. The same goes for mandatory insurance.

We're empowered pedestrians - not sidewalk drivers.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea
[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

[BruceWright]

I'm going to step down as well. Re-reading the thread, tsg DID apologize before my post.

I take back my self-righteousness.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Sailor]

quote:Originally posted by tsg

Sailor -

You read me the riot act on post-ownership, and acted as if I didnt have the right to post as I did. That wasn't necessary. Also, acting as if my messages were profane is ridiculous.

TSG, I respectfully disagree. I didn't read you the riot act nor did I act as if you didn't have the right to post. I merely stated my opinion based on my experience as a Segway owner, an opinion which wasn't diametrically opposite of your own but only slightly different. Hence I am mystified by your impression that I was reading you the riot act.

I strongly believe that all the forum members have the right to post their opinions, including you.

However, as it's become obvious at this point that you are not interested in calm dialogue I will be refraining from further participation in this thread.

[BruceWright]

I think one of the points that TSG brought up was IF Segway offered a 3mph key, would THAT blunt criticism of their use on the sidewalk.

I'm not sure it would, because just about everyone I meet and show the Segway to are unaware of existing slower keys.

As far as those opposed to them being used on the sidewalk, the top speed of the Segway is what concerns them, not possible lower speeds. They aren't aware that a 6mph key and an 8 exist, and when I tell them about it they usually discount that and say "nobody will use those." These folks fears are based on the worst-case scenario.


Perhaps reducing the overall top speed of a Segway, on the other hand, might do the job. But some of those horses have already left the barn.

The P-series' rumored top-speed is 10mph, so we'll see if that helps.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[jillmac]

tsg: You question whether a slower key would be useful and that traveling at slower speeds means more agility.

Actually, using the black key at slow speeds gives you less agility than using the yellow or red keys at slow speeds. With a red key you can move just as slow as you want, but can move around tight corners and obstacles far better than with the black key.

I tend to ride pretty slowly. The Segway for me is more of a mobility aid and I love to go for 'walks' with the family now. I thought that using the black key would be best at slow speeds, but it really isn't - not once you are well practiced in riding.

Jill

[tsg]

I think you're right, Jill. The only reason I brought any of this up is that some communities are attached to the idea that a Seg is dangerous because it can move so fast. Whether that is just a misconception on their part, or valid I won't debate. What I will say is even only if for PR purposes, a 'Sidewalk' key might help assuage that fear.

A Segway, like any vehicle, is only as safe as its rider. As there is no regulation or certification to be able to 'glide' on one - I think these locales need something from the Segway side to say, "We're being as safe as we can be." I'd love it if everybody knew how much fun and safe they can be (even convenient and helpful), but I think some may never get past "it's a 12.5mph scooter".

Maybe someone could design a big foam-padded brushbar attachment... or a bar that stops the Seg if it hits something. Who knows?


Just a clarification: By 'Sidewalk Key', I mean a 3mph key. You could try and sell an 8mph max key to localities and try to convince them 8mph is fine - but I don't think they would buy it.

[BruceWright]

Interesting points, tsg.

By the way, the Segway does have a speed limiting key that they call the "Sidewalk Key" It is the yellow key that sets the maximum speed at 8 miles per hour, the same speed as that Rascal assistive scooter.

Since you, an owner, didn't know about this name for the intermediate key, I'm sure opponents wouldn't either.

Here's a link that shows the different keys and their names:
http://www.segway.com/segway/specs_iseries.html


My segway stops when the handlebars hit something. That cancels out some of the force at least at low speeds.

I'd like to see low-wattage radar being used off the front of the Segway to slow riders down before hitting something. That would be a great technology and pretty cheap too.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[momentone]

"or a bar that stops the Seg if it hits something."

My earlier point is that it ALREADY does that. As your center of gravity changes at impact, it stops and reverses course.



adios

[BruceWright]

quote:Originally posted by tsg

Just a clarification: By 'Sidewalk Key', I mean a 3mph key. You could try and sell an 8mph max key to localities and try to convince them 8mph is fine - but I don't think they would buy it.



We shall see. So far in Los Angeles, it's the top speed that governmental officials (In the Los Angeles Department of Disability) were objecting to, as well as the relative silence of the machine. However we didn't discuss lower-speed keys, so I don't know what their take would be.

However, in the meanwhile I think we were able to allay any unfounded fears and I hope that the Segway may indeed be allowed to continue to ride on sidewalks in Los Angeles, with proper legislation governing safe usage. The discussions continue in the government of the city of Los Angeles about proper regulatory response to the Segway.

Any ideas anyone has to help in promoting the Segway's ability to safely travel amongst pedestrians are helpful.



-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

bruce-

i'm not sure if it helps, but i'd be more than willing to send a video testimonial explaining my commute, giving up a car, using a ht in a major city (seattle) for 4 months over 650 miles...let me know.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[RAG1247]

I think everyone (particularly those in California or any other state where anti-segway groups are operating) should go the following website.

http://www.walksf.org/

One should thoroughly read all of their comments relating the the segway including their advice to other geographical areas as to how to get the segway banned. I recognize that many of their statements are incorrect, poorly stated, exaggerated, misleading, etc., but somehow each and every one is going to have to be offset by providing the correct information or information that negates the perception they are trying to achieve, regardles of whether it involves slow speed keys, trained riders, etc..

I don't agree with momentone's statement that on impact, the ht stops and reverses. That may be partially true based on the rider's reaction and particularly in the the case of an immovable object.

I pushed various pieces of furniture (all on a tile floor) all over my living room tonight with the ht and surprisingly the ht appeared to push harder when the handlebar (with old bag) made contact with something than when the lower portion of the unit made the initial contact. Admittedly, I made no real effort to stop when contact was made, but that would be similar to a pedestrain darting out of a doorway immediately into the path of a moving segway.



Richard
Ft. Lauderdale

If you can't change the people around you, change the people around you

[pt]

i was in san fran a couple weeks ago speaking at technology conference right by city hall, and met many of the people from walksf at the protests (at least they said they were)...they're motives are honorable, they just have a different way of expressing it. generally (and in my opinion) the tensions run kinda high there and get almost violent with some of the sf groups with many issues, so the propaganday like stuff on the site to is exactly what i heard about all sorts of issues that walksf addresses. it's kinda ironic, i got along with all the folks and they really liked how i gave up a car, but never asked what i used instead. later that day a few thousand people got arrested and it got really crazy-- i've never seen anything like it in my life.

cheers,
pt

http://www.bookofseg.com

[mzokc]

A 3 mph key has one flaw. You would be hitting speed limiter too often. I used the black key for 7 hours at a maximum of 3 or 4 mph at the theme park and never hit speed limiter. The black key gives you that margin of extra over 3 mph without getting stuck with a control bar in the tummy.

Tonight I visited the nearby supermarket for the first time and slowly glided down the aisles on the red key. Gliding at a controlled rate is a matter of practice and discipline.

Mark