Battery refill

[PeteInLongBeach]

So, what do we know about this company?

http://www.batteryrefill.com/Segway/index.phtml

You can also find them on ebay. They appear to offer service for both nickel and lithium batteries, but didn't Jason from MTO say that he found rebuilding lithiums to be problematic?

I have a friend who is going to try their service for his nickel batteries, so I'll get a report from him. Given the intricasies of segway batteries, I'm wondering how reliable and safe such aftermarket rebuilds will be. Since my segways live inside the house, I'm mostly concerned about fire safety.

Pete.

[MTOBATTERY]

Tell your friend to check here http://www.resellerratings.com/store/eBattery_Inc_8.

I've seen their work and will remain professional and will not comment but certainly urge your friend to search for reviews on the net prior to giving them his batteries.

Lithiums can be rebuilt but it is not cost effective. Until you figure "quality" cells, labor, and liability, you may as well buy from your local dealer as I cannot provide a quality battery for much cheaper.

[rook2218joe]

I ordered two "rebuilt" batteries from them. The order was slow in coming, but the batteries (lithium ion) work fine and the range seems to be improved. That could be because I was comparing with my "older" li ion's, or it could be because they pack the casing with sub-C's that deliver an additional 1 Ah.

So far as quality on the rebuilt Segway batteries, the only thing I though was a little "below top quality" was the fact the the battery packs appeared to have been re-sealed with silicone. (I would expect that they could invest in the appropriate "welder".) I have heard from another member that he once had one of their batteries "short-out" when he accidentally drove through a puddle...I have never, and do not intend to ride in rainy or wet conditions based on some of the comments made by other members about Segway stability on slippery surfaces.

The negative comments mentioned on the site Jason has mentioned are primarily about rebuilt batteries for equipment "other than Segways". It appears that eBattery, Inc., rebuilds batteries for many applications...some of which are even more expensive than Segway Li-ions. Why one would have a laptop or cellphone battery rebuilt is beyond me. BUY A NEW BATTERY! I believe that if a person orders a rebuilt battery that cost less than $3-400 dollars to save $50 or $75 dollars they are also probably going to complain about any perceived "problem".

When you start to talk about $1957.00 for two new Segway batteries (cost here in Florida with 7% sales tax and shipping), I took the option of getting the rebuilt batteries @ $1325.00 for a pair including shipping. They come with a one-year warranty and each battery had eBattery's sticker on it showing the date that the cell had been "re-packed"...warranty void if the sticker "over-lapping" a seam had been removed.

I worked with a guy named Andy in Ontario, CA. He was knowledgeable, but I kind of "held his feet to the fire" when I had paid the full price ($1299) rather than return my old battery pack for re-filling with new cells ($999). I wanted to get rolling again as soon as possible, but with the arrival delay of four weeks, I could have just as easily sent them my batteries in about the same amount of time. When speaking to my Florida Segway dealer he said that he ordered the batteries when requested by the customer to insure that the new Li-ions would "be as fresh as possible".

I'll post after eight months of use regarding my eBattery experience as it pertains to reliability and miles per charge.

[MTOBATTERY]

And how did they have you ship the Lithium batteries to them? They told us when we called that they would send us a prepaid USPS label. Is this what they did for you?

[rook2218joe]

No shipping to them was required. They sent be refilled batteries and I kept my old ones...it cost more but didn't want to fool around with back and forth shipping. (I thought I explained that pretty clearly in my previous post.)

[MTOBATTERY]

Sorry, I mistook that when I read over it the first time. I as well as many others here will be anxious to hear what you have to report after a few months of use.

[rook2218joe]

I guess somebody has to be the first one to "jump into the water".

I will, of course, give you an update after I have had a few months use and several deplete/recharge cycles.

I have a close friend, owner or Market Battery, who knows a little about MTO and I'm sure he would send his regards if he knew we were in contact. I intend to meet him Tuesday for lunch...I'll tell him that you seem to be doing fine. (I hate to use first and last names in an open forum in case there are any "hard feelings" for others with the named person.)

You are probably aware that Market Battery in a national dealer of batteries primarily to industry, government, school safety equipment, police, fire departments, special rescue etc. He did a quick check on the eBattery, Inc. idea and said that what they were proposing to do would work except he, like you, didn't see how it would be possible to make a "reasonable profit" when considering the cost of each cel plus laborl.

He orders cells by the tens-of-thousands from China for use in the sepcialized battery packs mentioned above. He's just getting started on the battery refills for many state/county voting machines...he placed a $200,000order from China that CAN'T BE FILLED (i.e., delivered) until early July of 2009. Now that seems crazy.

He has also investigated the li-ion battery "restorer" that dgbent (segway chat member) recently sold on ebay. He indicated that the technology would be pretty basic (Convince the charger safety protocol (from Segway) that the "below charge" battery had an adequate charge by placing a diode between it and a "good battery"). I've spoken to the person (also a well known Segwaychat member) who bought Michael's device and I expect to get a report from him about how well it works in the next few weeks. After having had the unit for about three weeks he, a dealer, says he had already recovered the $999 purchase price by restoring segway batteries. I was going to buy it for my own personal use and I am awaiting an answer from Michael in Australia about getting one for my own use.

Lastly, according to my "battery guru" there have been some exciting developments in the field of "nano-lithium" battery technology. (I think he said at the University of Pittsburg.) Assuming that the cost of this new nano technology decreases with time, we Segway guys could be looking at 50+ miles on a charge. AND, little, or no cell degragation...(of course someday we will have the StarTrek transporter!!) His extimate was approximately five years before "nano-lithium" was "street available". This development is being funded by government entities...i.e., NASA and military.

He also said something about "lithium-potassium" cells, but that was getting WAY over my head.

If you contact me privately I have some other information about the Chinese companies that are currently building (assembling?) the Segway batteries. These "unsubstantiated rumors" would bring Jackie Chang to his knees at his new Segway dealership...I think it's in Tiawan. Cost of an I2 at his dealership??? approaching $10,000US. I wonder if there is a "waiting list"?

Regards

[Bob.Kerns]

Interesting. So I take it the charging safety stuff is in the charger, not the battery? That makes it a lot easier to see how they bring them back to life.

I wonder, when battery technology improves, will we go for improved range or reduced weight, or somewhere in between?

Reducing weight would improve range a little bit, and have a number of benefits, including easing unreasoning fears of "that heavy machine".

But I wonder how much that platform+battery mass is necessary for stability operating at speed? A lighter platform might transmit more of the road bumps and be easier to knock off course when one wheel hits a bump.

I've been very impressed, by the way, with how well the i2 gets itself back under you when that happens. If you get knocked to one side, the leansteer technology will bring the base back under you within a few hundred milliseconds. The few times it's happened to me, I've gone "what just happened?" I'm not sure what would have happened in those cases on a gen1. Probably I'd have had to intervene -- perhaps pull myself back into alignment using the CS (I wasn't far off balance so that might have been enough) or turn manually, a lot later than on the i2, or maybe even fall.

But with less weight, that initial knock might result in a much larger platform twist, making the event much bigger from the rider's point of view.

So, while I don't really need more range, and would benefit from less weight, I suspect we may be better off with the range, rather than weight reduction?

[rook2218joe]

Bob,

Exactly WHERE the safety circuitry is located is probably a question that Jason would be most qualified to answer...it could work either way.

The two batteries, one good and one below minimum level are attached together. The diode would prevent the lower charge from the "bad" battery being transmitted to the charger. The charger sends out the charge...some of it goes into the "good battery" and some of it goes into the "bad battery". But the diode allows current to flow in only one direction. Therefore, the charger thinks it is doing what it is supposed to do...charging a battery at above minimal level. Where the safety protections are located wouldn't seem to matter. Michael (dgbent) seems to have developed some method which fools the equipment (both charger and battery) into working together. He'd be a good source of information on the technical details, but he certainly has the full right to manufacture such a charger (and protect it's circuitry) because he has taken the initiative to build the device, the inner workings AND the technical details could be considered and "intellectual property".

Weight may, or may not, be the most important factor of future batteries. Part of the concept lithium/nano energy production allows for the ability for the "nano-lithium" cell to internally reverse the effect (direction) of the nano portion. Simple explanation: In the "A" mode the electrons flow to the "right", in the "B" mode the electrons flow to the "left" making energy in both directions. Sort of partially recharging itself prior to actually being attached to a charger. This is NOTHING LIKE perpetual motion because the reverse flow is "extremely limited", (and probably will remain so based on elementary physics) but the directionality function should/might keep the cell charge from falling below specific minimal levels...something like a self filling swimming pool or the toilet tank. Water has to be put back, but "much" of the previous fill remains for "partial use".

I've got friends working for MAJOR CORPORATIONS (Honeywell, Ratheon, etc.)as electrical engineers. Their basic answer seems to be "with future developments almost anything is possible..but not certain."

[Bob.Kerns]

Bob,

Exactly WHERE the safety circuitry is located is probably a question that Jason would be most qualified to answer...it could work either way.

The two batteries, one good and one below minimum level are attached together. The diode would prevent the lower charge from the "bad" battery being transmitted to the charger. The charger sends out the charge...some of it goes into the "good battery" and some of it goes into the "bad battery". But the diode allows current to flow in only one direction. Therefore, the charger thinks it is doing what it is supposed to do...charging a battery at above minimal level. Where the safety protections are located wouldn't seem to matter.

My thinking was that since it seems you can do this without opening the battery, and this rejuvenator has access to voltage seen by the safety system, probably that's brought out on the connector.

There seem to be enough active connections on the connector, so I already suspected this, though I haven't taken the time to poke around.


Michael (dgbent) seems to have developed some method which fools the equipment (both charger and battery) into working together. He'd be a good source of information on the technical details, but he certainly has the full right to manufacture such a charger (and protect it's circuitry) because he has taken the initiative to build the device, the inner workings AND the technical details could be considered and "intellectual property".


Agreed. Though the interface is Segway, Inc's, and he's just reverse-engineered it, something we could do, too. But I'd certainly rather reward his innovation than replicate the effort he put into it!

The main thing to me is that, seeing how all this fits together gives me more confidence in the solution and its legitimacy, and more confidence in the integrity of batteries that have successfully had this procedure applied.


Weight may, or may not, be the most important factor of future batteries. Part of the concept lithium/nano energy production allows for the ability for the "nano-lithium" cell to internally reverse the effect (direction) of the nano portion. Simple explanation: In the "A" mode the electrons flow to the "right", in the "B" mode the electrons flow to the "left" making energy in both directions. Sort of partially recharging itself prior to actually being attached to a charger. This is NOTHING LIKE perpetual motion because the reverse flow is "extremely limited", (and probably will remain so based on elementary physics) but the directionality function should/might keep the cell charge from falling below specific minimal levels...something like a self filling swimming pool or the toilet tank. Water has to be put back, but "much" of the previous fill remains for "partial use".

I've got friends working for MAJOR CORPORATIONS (Honeywell, Ratheon, etc.)as electrical engineers. Their basic answer seems to be "with future developments almost anything is possible..but not certain."

I don't think I have enough context to really follow your explanation. But it sounds like a phenomenon present in a lot of battery technologies, including lead-acid, where, while sitting idle, the battery moves some of its stored energy to the surface of the plates where it becomes available for use on discharge. This is why, after letting your car battery sit,when it's almost discharged, you can sometimes successfully start the car.

In the Si nanowire case, with significantly more surface area, perhaps this effect is much greater, making it ideal for high peak currents, like found in transportation uses -- including the Segway.

What really gets my interest in the nano-Si/Li world is the fast recharge. But it also worries me -- if I don't have a choice but to charge on a fast charger that draws, say, 10A (@ 110VAC), I'll have to be careful about what circuits I plug it into. I may need my own Segway circuit. I think I'd like to control the charging rate.

10A at my office would be a deal breaker on plugging it in there -- I'd be sure to blow the breakers every time, leaving a bunch of computers without power. Currently, the power draw is less than that of a single typical desktop computer.

[KSagal]

Bob,

I agree with all that you said except the 10A bit at the end...

I work in commercial electronics, and 10A is a tiny load. Less than many copiers, less than the cleaning crew with a good vacuum.

If you try to plug into an already loaded circuit, you have a point, but I am sure the cleaning crew does not pay much attention where they plug in the vacuum and the building designers usually know this.

All the rest I agree with, and have found this thread and line of thought very interesting...

[Bob.Kerns]

Bob,

I agree with all that you said except the 10A bit at the end...

I work in commercial electronics, and 10A is a tiny load. Less than many copiers, less than the cleaning crew with a good vacuum.

If you try to plug into an already loaded circuit, you have a point, but I am sure the cleaning crew does not pay much attention where they plug in the vacuum and the building designers usually know this.


Indeed, cleaning crews with vacuum cleaners have caused a tremendous amount of computer downtime over the years.

I've had to (repeatedly) train my wife not to plug vacuum cleaners into UPS's (which don't like big inductive loads). She's been working with computers for 30 years, so you can imagine that cleaning crews will do this pretty often. Sometimes they'll even unplug the computer to plug in their vacuum.

The electrical code specifies either 15A or 20A fusing for outlets (depending on whether 14 ga or 12 ga wire is used). The equates to either 12A or 16A continuous allowable load.

10A is more than half of that. In a typical office with cubicles, an entire row of cubicles will be plugged into a single outlet -- basically, the row of cubicles is a big power strip/extension cord. A row of cubicles can easily draw 10A with lots of computers, perhaps a few task lights, etc.

Note that this is well within spec -- NOT an overload situation.

But if you add 10A to it, either by plugging into a cubicle outlet, or by plugging into the outlet the cubicles plug into, then you WILL have an overload.

Note that it doesn't help if the cubicles are directly wired rather than via an outlet. They're still fused at 20A at a maximum.

[MTOBATTERY]

Most of the safety is located within the battery pack itself. I may not be understanding this device completely but the diode doesn't seem to really serve any purpose to me. The good battery will level out it's charge level with the dead battery if hooked up like I understand you saying. Current will only flow from the fullest pack to the lowest. There are major things to consider when trying to recondition a lithium battery.

1. Are the cells just too low voltage to charge or is there a bad cell?
2. Is there a defect with the circuitry?
3. How are you monitoring temperature during reconditioning? Excessive heat can/will be created.
4. How are you regulating amperage going into the "dead" battery pack? Keep in mind you do not just have the amperage of the charger but the amperage potential of the other battery charging the "dead" battery.
5. If the "dead" battery has a damaged circuit board there is a possibility of further damage being done to both batteries and possibly the charger being used.

If you cannot properly diagnose the problem with the battery prior to doing any of this I would be VERY hesitant to recommend anyone hook two batteries in parallel and then attach one to the charger. This is dangerous if you are not extra careful. Not trying to be smart but I would make sure whomever you buy this device from has insurance.

Bob, you are one very educated individual. My hat is off for your knowledge with the nanowire technology. A123 is using nano technology in Dewalt tool packs and soon to be in the upcoming GM Volt. It is amazing technology that is much more durable and has great properties. I've had some experience with the batteries and presently only have good to say about them though my exposure has been limited. The cells are expensive and not as readily available as other lithium chemistries. I'd be surprised if Segway isn't working on or hasn't established a relationship with them yet.

I guess time will tell what comes out and what will be tomorrows technology.

[KSagal]

Indeed, cleaning crews with vacuum cleaners have caused a tremendous amount of computer downtime over the years.

I've had to (repeatedly) train my wife not to plug vacuum cleaners into UPS's (which don't like big inductive loads). She's been working with computers for 30 years, so you can imagine that cleaning crews will do this pretty often. Sometimes they'll even unplug the computer to plug in their vacuum.

The electrical code specifies either 15A or 20A fusing for outlets (depending on whether 14 ga or 12 ga wire is used). The equates to either 12A or 16A continuous allowable load.

10A is more than half of that. In a typical office with cubicles, an entire row of cubicles will be plugged into a single outlet -- basically, the row of cubicles is a big power strip/extension cord. A row of cubicles can easily draw 10A with lots of computers, perhaps a few task lights, etc.

Note that this is well within spec -- NOT an overload situation.

But if you add 10A to it, either by plugging into a cubicle outlet, or by plugging into the outlet the cubicles plug into, then you WILL have an overload.

Note that it doesn't help if the cubicles are directly wired rather than via an outlet. They're still fused at 20A at a maximum.


Fair enough. I am an engineer, and work on hardware. I have never had a cubical, though I understand what you are saying, and it may be so, it is not the way I would spec out a cubical farm build, and surely not how I have spec out the two offices I had built for myself in various companies... Each one had at least two dedicated 20amp services in addition to lights and built in circuits. Each bench in my service bays have dedicated service outlets also, because I do not want a fault on technician 1 to cause technician 2 to loose work. (I cut my teeth in business with keeping lighting and wall outlets separate all the time due to noise...)

My problem is that I am too technical, and involved directly, so am not a good judge of what I do not do...

I have seen some horrendous set-ups in companies, and I had to work with commercial electricians to establish what I need for my machines... Most of my career I have worked for manufacturers of equipment, at their client's buildings, and therefore have had the authority to design to my own (apparently overbuilt) standards...

I should have said that my experience, which is limited to mostly engineering and machine room environments, plugging in a segway is a non issue...

[MTOBATTERY]

I'm with you there and experienced some real bad wiring jobs as well. I worked at a place once that you could see your monitor flickering because they had an air compressor on the same circuit out in the shop. I bought a UPS for my PC/monitor so I didn't have to look at it all day.

Overbuilt.....sounds like you have engineer running through your blood. It's not always such a bad thing. Guess I'm a little biased in making that comment since I have an engineering background as well.

[Bob.Kerns]

Most of the safety is located within the battery pack itself. I may not be understanding this device completely but the diode doesn't seem to really serve any purpose to me. The good battery will level out it's charge level with the dead battery if hooked up like I understand you saying. Current will only flow from the fullest pack to the lowest. There are major things to consider when trying to recondition a lithium battery.

1. Are the cells just too low voltage to charge or is there a bad cell?
2. Is there a defect with the circuitry?
3. How are you monitoring temperature during reconditioning? Excessive heat can/will be created.
4. How are you regulating amperage going into the "dead" battery pack? Keep in mind you do not just have the amperage of the charger but the amperage potential of the other battery charging the "dead" battery.
5. If the "dead" battery has a damaged circuit board there is a possibility of further damage being done to both batteries and possibly the charger being used.

If you cannot properly diagnose the problem with the battery prior to doing any of this I would be VERY hesitant to recommend anyone hook two batteries in parallel and then attach one to the charger. This is dangerous if you are not extra careful. Not trying to be smart but I would make sure whomever you buy this device from has insurance.

Bob, you are one very educated individual. My hat is off for your knowledge with the nanowire technology. A123 is using nano technology in Dewalt tool packs and soon to be in the upcoming GM Volt. It is amazing technology that is much more durable and has great properties. I've had some experience with the batteries and presently only have good to say about them though my exposure has been limited. The cells are expensive and not as readily available as other lithium chemistries. I'd be surprised if Segway isn't working on or hasn't established a relationship with them yet.

I guess time will tell what comes out and what will be tomorrows technology.

Most of my battery experience dates back to carbon-zinc or lead-acid days, and my power switching circuitry to days when the TRIAC was the new kid on the block...

What the diode does for you depends on where it goes. I'm just speculating, of course.

Where *I* would want it to go is to block the good battery from trying to charge the bad one, while allowing the circuitry that senses the voltage to see the good battery. If that circuitry is on the battery, rather than the charger, I don't know that you can place it there, though!

I think it's a Bad Idea to hook batteries in parallel. Period. For any purpose.

I'm aware it's sometimes done successfully, but the negatives far outweigh any benefits in my mind.

What happens when one cell in one battery is (or goes) bad? Some form of "oops", unless you're lucky and it fails to conduct at all, and you'll have 1/2 of your battery capacity available.

Not quite as lucky, and the good battery will silently discharge into the bad one, probably destroying the rest of the good cells in the bad battery by overcharging in the process -- and if you're unlucky, start a fire, or cause acid to boil out of the battery, or an explosion with chemicals you'd rather stay nicely contained...

Even if both batteries are good -- if one is charged, and one is not, you're likely to exceed the maximum charge rate of the discharged one, which is generally a Very Bad Idea.

Even if they're both charged, they won't have exactly the same voltage. One will receive more charge than the other as a result. Their life will be limited to the life of the weaker battery.

You're better off connecting the batteries through diodes, so they're isolated from each other. The downside is that 0.6V loss, which at, say, 100A, amounts to 60W of wasted power (and heat you have to get rid of). You can avoid that by actively switching them instead, say with power MOSFET circuitry.

The other possible use for a diode I see is for the 0.6V forward voltage drop of a silicon diode. That might serve to limit the rate of discharge of one battery into the other, but it's not a very robust technique, depending too much on exact battery behavior and how far discharged it is.

I've heard of people buying up DeWalt battery packs to get their hands on the cells for various projects, including cars.

Hey, I'm tempted to go buy all new cordless equipment, and use them for their intended purposes. I'm tired of having the batteries die in mid-project!

How many battery packs would I have to buy to build myself a Segway battery? Nah...for some reason that reminds me of a project I had for myself when I was maybe 9 or so -- I was going to build myself an electric-powered tractor -- starting by winding the motors -- and hire it out to local farmers. A few things I didn't know I didn't know back then. A few things I don't know I don't know now... The difference is, I know it makes no economic sense at all.

[Bob.Kerns]

Fair enough. I am an engineer, and work on hardware. I have never had a cubical, though I understand what you are saying, and it may be so, it is not the way I would spec out a cubical farm build, and surely not how I have spec out the two offices I had built for myself in various companies... Each one had at least two dedicated 20amp services in addition to lights and built in circuits. Each bench in my service bays have dedicated service outlets also, because I do not want a fault on technician 1 to cause technician 2 to loose work. (I cut my teeth in business with keeping lighting and wall outlets separate all the time due to noise...)

My problem is that I am too technical, and involved directly, so am not a good judge of what I do not do...

I have seen some horrendous set-ups in companies, and I had to work with commercial electricians to establish what I need for my machines... Most of my career I have worked for manufacturers of equipment, at their client's buildings, and therefore have had the authority to design to my own (apparently overbuilt) standards...

I should have said that my experience, which is limited to mostly engineering and machine room environments, plugging in a segway is a non issue...

Generally you find this sort of situation in older buildings, with people crammed into small spaces that formerly held fewer people. So you see things like microwave ovens moved from the kitchen to the game room so the refrigerators and coffee maker don't lose power when you run the microwave on the same circuit.

It's one thing adding a new outlet here or there, it's quite another to put in a bigger panel for more circuits.

The building we're in was built in 1922 for Standard Oil.

New construction, anybody sane will put in enough power and then some. But cubicles aren't sane...

I don't do much hardware stuff anymore...

It's been a long time since I've been able to tell someone to go get an electrician and put in some 20A Hubbel connectors for the computers, each on their own circuit! (Or was it 30A?)

These days, I may say "we need another blade in the colo", and someone else takes care of placing the order, deploying the software, and the colo takes care of things like motor-generator-flywheel power backup, redundant network feeds, and all that. I haven't even looked inside a computer at my current job.

Oddly enough, we do have an oscilloscope, but for neuroscience purposes, not computers.

[Bob.Kerns]

I'm with you there and experienced some real bad wiring jobs as well. I worked at a place once that you could see your monitor flickering because they had an air compressor on the same circuit out in the shop. I bought a UPS for my PC/monitor so I didn't have to look at it all day.

Overbuilt.....sounds like you have engineer running through your blood. It's not always such a bad thing. Guess I'm a little biased in making that comment since I have an engineering background as well.

My best monitor flicker story ---

Back in the early 1980's, I did some network driver programming under VAX/VMS. My company didn't have a Vax, but somehow we struck a deal with the MIT plasma fusion center to use theirs.

The computer was on the second floor, diagonally opposite the fusion equipment in the basement, maybe a couple hundred feet away. Whenever they'd fire off their equipment -- water cooled with a pipeline from the Charles river a block away, massive aluminum beams for conductors to the superconducting magnets and all -- all the VT100 monitors's displays would twist and squirm -- not just a little, but like 90 degrees or so.

Not because of the power, though -- because of the magnetic fields bending the electron beams in the monitor's CRT!

My best bad wiring story--

Back in the 1970's, one of the ceiling light fixtures in a bedroom at my frat had started flickering, and then failed completely.

I was assigned to investigate.

The building was a 3-story brownstone built in the late 1890's on newly filled land in the Back Bay. It was originally the property of a wealthy family -- a writing desk from there is part of the collection at the MFA. Originally lit with gaslights, it had been electrified at some point using knob-and-tube wiring, and eventually the plumbing for the gaslights were disconnected. But the gaslight fixtures remained.

When the frat took it over after Mrs. Richardson died (they had been neighbors since 1910), it was partially rewired, but much of the wiring was still knob-and-tube.

For all you youngsters -- before the days of nice plastic-coated wire, houses used to be wired with copper wire covered with various things -- often linen & latex rubber. Wires would be strung between white porcelain "knob" insulators, and, where necessary, passed through joists, etc. with porcelain tubes.

As these wires aged, the coatings would harden, crack, and even fall off, so you'd sometimes have bare wires in the walls, held in place and protected by these porcelain insulators. Generally they'd stay put, separated by several inches.

Not quite as dangerous as it sounds, but rather nerve wracking to work around if you had to poke around in the walls or ceilings.

Anyway, I took off the lampshade, unscrewed the bulbs, and the fixture. As was common, the fixture was screwed to the former gas pipe.

Once I got the fixture removed, I found myself holding a fixture with one wire attached, and one short wire dangling, with the end stripped and oddly curled. And no second wire to attach it to.

I scratched my head for a bit, and finally realized what was going on.

Some not-as-bright-as-he-thought MIT student had repaired the fixture, when the neutral wire had broken. Since the neutral wire was lost deep in the ceiling out of reach, he'd thought "hmm, here's this nice gas pipe. It's grounded. I'll just hook the return circuit here, wrap the wire a few times around the pipe, and good as new!"

Well, it worked for a few years. Good thing the ground was pretty good on that pipe, and that nobody tried removing the piping. Good thing that lost neutral wire didn't gradually curl up and touch the hot wire. Good thing that poor connection to the pipe didn't get hot enough to ignite the horsehair in the plaster.

I don't remember just how I fixed it, but it wasn't to hook the wire back up to the pipe!

[MTOBATTERY]

Wow Bob, did you sleep at all last night??? :)

[Bob.Kerns]

Wow Bob, did you sleep at all last night??? :)

Not much. I wasn't feeling well yesterday, and went back to bed after breakfast, and slept till afternoon.

Hope you enjoyed my stories. I have good snake stories, if anyone can think of a connection to Segways. And there's that great rabbit vs rattlesnake video to link to. But only if someone can think of a connection to Segways. Don't want to get off topic, you know...

[drmarty]

Hey folks,
I've been too busy fixing batteries to do much posting. And I'm not going to address everything on this thread.

I've done hundreds of batteries now. Again for the new folks. I "save" the batteries with a method I developed several years ago.

I do the work in a lab setting (well a warehouse) but with a large rack of electronic equipment to do it safely and then most importantly I test the batteries so that you know exactly what you have. I have "saved" quite a few batteries that would accept a charge on the Segway but still weren't good. Sometimes after charging they won't work at all and some are just very weak and will give a short ride. In other cases we see batteries that charge fully but will only put out low voltage so that the Segway operates fine but you get stick shake all the time and you can't go up steep hills.

I also am going to be selling some batteries soon. They are good and guaranteed and you get the data with them. No pig in a poke.

By the way we can also test your batteries. If they work but don't seem right (like the ones above, stick shake - low power) it might be one bad battery or both. How do you tell?

I can. You will know if one is bad, both are bad, or whatever.

I certainly can understand trying to save money but be careful folks. I charge $125 to save your battery with testing. I am very safe but even if I wasn't it would be my place that burns down, not yours. And if something untoward happens and you ruin your good battery you now have two dead ones instead of one. Yeouch!

A few of the people have seen my equipment and can vouch for the fact that I know what I am doing.

I always like to talk about Segways and Batteries too. If you want to ask me a question about our your batteries or your Segway give me a call.

Or if you want to sell me any great stuff. Broken Segway parts take my breath away. And my money.

And if anyone wants to come by Martyland, The Orange County Segway Fun House give me a call. You can see all my equipment, ride a P133, an i167, i180, i170, ride an e167 or just watch it, ride an i2, ride my handsfree i2, How about a version 10 i167 - not messed up with those pesky upgrades.
We can try to fix your Segway if you are having trouble.

Anyway give me a call if you need your batteries Saved.

Marty
714 757-9799

Karl, how many cells do you think you need for that project? They operate at 3.3 volts, not 4.2. They are 1300 or 1350 mAh. Sorry it has taken me so long.

mcn

[SegwayBill]

Had Batteryrefill.com rebuild my lion's for $500, they are almost as good as new.
A complete rebuild is $1000.
Contact Andy at 909-268-8741 tell him I sent you.

[Bob.Kerns]

Had Batteryrefill.com rebuild my lion's for $500, they are almost as good as new.
A complete rebuild is $1000.
Contact Andy at 909-268-8741 tell him I sent you.

What's the difference between a complete rebuild and what you had done? I.e. what do you call what you had done for $500?

[rook2218joe]

Guy, and others interested:

The new batteries (supposedly li-ION) that I ordered from eBattery/Battery refill seem to work fine when they are installed in pairs. I haven't had a chance to give the a "real work-out" (over 15 miles yet), but on short runs (up to a few miles) they seem to work fine...HOWEVER!!!

The one eBattery paired with one Segway manufactured Li-ION will not allow the machine to run. The error code indicating that the installed batteries are NOT OF LIKE KIND (i.e., one Li-ION and one Nickle) are installed on the machine. When I removed one of my spare Segway manufactured Li-ION batteries with the identical refilled eBattery the machine operated properly.

These "old knees" don't bend as well as the used to, but tomorrow I plan to put two of my three spare batteries on the yellow Seg to see if it still works and if the will still accept a charge...they have not been charged in about three weeks because my other Segway (the blue one) is with Steve at Segway of Oakland having some work done to correct the problems that I described in my post listed as "red circle with wrench" elsewhere in this section.

I want to put at least two of the original Segway batteries on the yellow (working) Segway so they don't discharge to the point that they become candidates for "refurbishing".

If I had to complain about one problem with Segways it would be the "proprietary" battery packs. At approximately $2000 per pair with shipping and taxes the idea of Segways be an "economical" method of transportation becomes a tought sell. Hopefully, someone will soon come out with a brand new replacement battery pack at about 1/2 the price.

Dr. Marty, what you do is great and I'll probably be sending you more batteries from time-to-time...I also thought I read in one of your posts that you might soon have "batteries for sale".

Pete in Long Beach, use Drl Marty, or MTO for your friends refill. EBattery is on the "right track" but I don't see them as being ready for "PRIME TIME" yet. I'm sure they are doing OK with computer and cell phone batteries.

Bob Kern, gave it a try and my results are as shown above. I wish my satisfaction was full (exchangeable battery packs), but I'm left a little bit short. I swith Segway with Segway batteries all the time to keep them fresh...this was something "new" to me. Maybe they are NOT REALLY Li-ION batteries, or maybe there is some other circuitry the prevents them from working with Segway supplied product.

Comments are welcome. I hope to be able to post this as a "new thread" as well a a reply to our previous conversations.

[Bob.Kerns]

Thanks for reporting your results.

I can think of a number of possible reasons for the "NOT LIKE KIND" error.

I wonder if people ever see that with new batteries paired with old ones?

It could be a difference in how much resistance there is in the circuitry, which would show up as a voltage difference under load. Additional resistance would show up as power wasted and excess heat -- but it's also conceivable that the repacked batteries are better, not worse. Not so likely, but possible.

It could be that the cells are of a different type. Li-Ion/Cobalt cells are, I believe, cheaper. But they're considerably more dangerous, which is why Segway didn't go that route. But LiCoO2 cells have a bit higher voltage. LiMnO2 has even higher voltage.

NiMH cells have a lower voltage, so you use more of them in series. The result would probably be a somewhat higher overall voltage -- certainly a different voltage.

I think you hit the nail on the head about "proprietary" battery packs. The cells are not proprietary, which does result in significant cost savings at that level. But there are a lot of costs associated with packs of cells, including testing costs, manufacturing setup, etc., that are difficult to amortize for small markets. (Especially when Segway, INC, is a built in competitor).

The other day, I was reading part of a book on rehabilitation engineering. Apparently, improvements to battery technology for power wheelchairs has been held up by the small size of THAT market -- a mere 500,000 units / year.

A difficulty in standardization is that different applications use different voltages, and thus have to be configured differently. Power wheelchairs use 24V. Sailboats use 12V for their house batteries, as do most powerboats. Power vehicles are all over the map, except golf carts, which are some multiple of 6V between 12V and 48V (usually 36V or 48V). Forklifts, I believe, run 24V to 48V.

If a Segway battery pack could be built with, say, 10 6.6-volt packs that could be shared with all these other applications, certified for shipment, we might see both a lower cost structure, and quicker availability of newer battery technology.

Standardized protocols for monitoring of the battery would also help. Imagine being able to plug a battery into an analyzer which tells you that one cell is self-discharging, or that a moisture fault occurred last week, but it's OK now. This analyzer might be something any electric car service shop would have.

[SegwayBill]

They only replaced the damaged cells.

[Bob.Kerns]

They only replaced the damaged cells.

That narrows it down, but I'm not sure what it narrows it down to... I can't believe they'd use a different type of cell in that case!

Perhaps there were more cells that weren't quite up to spec? Or poor welding? Dunno...

[561MB]

I hope everyone is aware that Li-Ion battery safety, especially experimenting with Li-Ion recharging protocols, is not to be fooled with casually. Recent Lithium battery fires at the Yardney battery manufacturer in Connecticut and with the Navy's ASDS system in Hawai'i (probable total loss of $100M++ taxpayer investment in US Navy SEAL Delivery System submersible) show that even the most knowledgeable battery professionals can make mistakes resulting in a very dangerous battery fire on their hands. Experimenting with these highly energetic chemistries is something that should be attempted only with knowledge of the consequences for failure, and/or a well funded insurance policy.

[KSagal]

I hope everyone is aware that Li-Ion battery safety, especially experimenting with Li-Ion recharging protocols, is not to be fooled with casually. Recent Lithium battery fires at the Yardney battery manufacturer in Connecticut and with the Navy's ASDS system in Hawai'i (probable total loss of $100M++ taxpayer investment in US Navy SEAL Delivery System submersible) show that even the most knowledgeable battery professionals can make mistakes resulting in a very dangerous battery fire on their hands. Experimenting with these highly energetic chemistries is something that should be attempted only with knowledge of the consequences for failure, and/or a well funded insurance policy.

Were either fire involving the LiIons the same chemistry as we are talking about? I was under the impression that the phosphate chemistry has very different burn characteristics, and if these qoted fires were not one of the 'safer' LiIon chemistries, then the topic of these fires may be misleading.

Saying that LiIons are this or that is like saying that 'new cars' are this or that. There are many variations out there, and some are much safer than others... Quite often that safety comes at the expense of some performance, and therefore when people try to eek the most perfomance for the dollar, they take safety shortcuts....

This is as old as technology is. It has always occured, and is not likely to stop for this particular battery chemistry.

I am not saying that it is safe to play around with these batteries if you do not know what you are doing, I am just saying that a problem down the road may not be the particular problem you are going to have, just because one of the terms is the same in the title of the topic...

[Bob.Kerns]

Were either fire involving the LiIons the same chemistry as we are talking about? I was under the impression that the phosphate chemistry has very different burn characteristics, and if these qoted fires were not one of the 'safer' LiIon chemistries, then the topic of these fires may be misleading.

Saying that LiIons are this or that is like saying that 'new cars' are this or that. There are many variations out there, and some are much safer than others... Quite often that safety comes at the expense of some performance, and therefore when people try to eek the most perfomance for the dollar, they take safety shortcuts....

This is as old as technology is. It has always occured, and is not likely to stop for this particular battery chemistry.

I am not saying that it is safe to play around with these batteries if you do not know what you are doing, I am just saying that a problem down the road may not be the particular problem you are going to have, just because one of the terms is the same in the title of the topic...

Neither were the same technology. The Yardley fire involved a HUGE battery with hydrofluoric acid, likely intended for submarine usage, based on its size -- 50 liters of electrolyte. Or perhaps for large spacecraft; they have a contract for batteries for the replacement for the space shuttle.

I don't know the specific chemistry involved in this particular battery. I've read the MSDS for another of their electrolytes, a fairly nasty bromine solution . That is, it's a solution with bromine as the solvent, lithium chloroaluminate and thionyl chloride as solutes, with extra SO2 (beyond the thionyl chloride) for good measure.

I think we can safely say this was not chosen for its safety!

But I think 561MB's point was that when dealing with large amounts of stored energy, which can be released quickly, you'd better know what you're doing AND be very careful.

This is true of most any area of power engineering, really. I've lost big hunks of steel tools to capacitive discharge -- after the power had been removed.

Even a common lead acid car starter battery from the gasoline engine era needs to be treated with great respect. While it won't burn, it's very toxic, and very corrosive, and very nasty if shorted out.

Yes, the battery chemistry matters a great deal, but at these energy capacities, no matter what the chemistry, there will be major problems if the batteries aren't treated with care.

[KSagal]

Neither were the same technology. The Yardley fire involved a HUGE battery with hydrofluoric acid, likely intended for submarine usage, based on its size -- 50 liters of electrolyte. Or perhaps for large spacecraft; they have a contract for batteries for the replacement for the space shuttle.

I don't know the specific chemistry involved in this particular battery. I've read the MSDS for another of their electrolytes, a fairly nasty bromine solution . That is, it's a solution with bromine as the solvent, lithium chloroaluminate and thionyl chloride as solutes, with extra SO2 (beyond the thionyl chloride) for good measure.

I think we can safely say this was not chosen for its safety!

But I think 561MB's point was that when dealing with large amounts of stored energy, which can be released quickly, you'd better know what you're doing AND be very careful.

This is true of most any area of power engineering, really. I've lost big hunks of steel tools to capacitive discharge -- after the power had been removed.

Even a common lead acid car starter battery from the gasoline engine era needs to be treated with great respect. While it won't burn, it's very toxic, and very corrosive, and very nasty if shorted out.

Yes, the battery chemistry matters a great deal, but at these energy capacities, no matter what the chemistry, there will be major problems if the batteries aren't treated with care.


Thank you for this information...

My point is similar to those questions a while back about that fire that was in the baggage area of an airplane...

It was labeled a battery fire on a wheelchair, and then there were parallels to segways in a similar situation, being as likely to have battery fires...

That situation was not a battery fire, but a short, and segways with their batteries would not act the same way in the same situation, because the technology is different.

I said also that I did not believe it was wise to fool with these batteries if you do not know what you are doing, and I suspect that some people who are doing just that are going to get their just deserts, but we need to keep this forum accurate, and not get into the blind fear mongering that the general uninformed press gets into...

Segways do not make you fat. I know it, and most everyone on this forum knows it. I do not easily let someone on this forum say they will and not challenge them.

Intelligent restoration of segway LiIon batteries by the current likely players on this forum are not at all likely to result in a $100,000,000 fire at taxpayer expense that was suggested as the possible outcome.

When we allow generalizations that condemn entire fields of study, i.e. battery technology, we do a discredit to the people who are taking tremendous strides in creating safer technologies, to avoid the very examples that were stated... In this case, a horse of a different color is a very important consideration. Each and every battery technology is not subject to the same risks, nor the same potentials for damage...

In other words, it is claims like the one I am referring to about the potential fires that prohibit segways on commercial flights, because some people choose to not care about the different LiIon technologies, so even the safer ones are condemned by the less safe ones. I find this to be wrong, and I choose to speak against this unfair generalization.

[2Mille]

I think there needs to be an additional explanation as to the sublte differences between a Segway Li=Ion battery vs. others especially in light of trasnporting "in commerce" (i.e.: handing it off to a contracted carrier to ship on your behalf) and thru an airline.
First, understand that the battery powering the Segway PT has a Li-Ion concentrate. Chekc their MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Anyone at Segway should be able to provide you this.
It is classified as a dangerous goods (Haz-Mat) class 9. Class 9 is the lowest of the classification (ex: dinamite of explosives is either class 1 or 2).
The battery is also classified under UN3171 when connected to the PT. This means the battery is in an enclosed compartment with the connectors protected and enclosed. Under this UN3171, you can transport "in commerce" ground or ocean w/o the need of a Haz-Mat certification. ransport via Air you will then need a Haz-Mat certification even if connected to the PT.
REASONS: I'll give you two to start: 1) The battery is NOT exempt from being a dangerous good becasue the overall weight is 5.2 kgs. The weight (also assuming Li-Ion concentrate) that would be exempt is under 5 kgs.
2) Fire suppressant system in airplanes are NOT sufficient to extinguish a "thermal issue" from a Li-Ion battery.
If you read the MSDS from Segway Lio-Ion battery you will note that indeed it's inherently and significantly SAFER than all other Li-Ion batteries around. I alwaqys mainteind the amount of cell phones with Li-Ion combined in an airplane is potentially more harmfull (if there were ever a thermal issue) than a pair of Segway batteries.
If you puncture a battery of a cell phone and add water, you will have a serious issue in your hands (SO DONT TRY THIS AT HOME WILL YA?!) whereas the extinguishing media for Segway's Li-on battery is, low and behold, water!
So when approaching an airline to claim the goods are safer than most, you will most unfortunately not win this argument becasue of:
a) you exceed the exemption by some 400 grams (2 x 200) and
b) there is a term called "Captains discretion" as in "I am the Captain and I decide what goes in my plane". If the UN rule says I need a certificate for dangerous goods then I need to see one.
Ever wonder why dealers are encouraged to get Haz-Mat certification? not only to transport batteries (in ALL cases - air, ground and ocean - loose batteries MUST be shipped with DG Certification).
If you travel with your PT a lot consider discussing with the airline on whether they will accept transporting the goods in their cargo compartment if you accompanyit with a DG certification.
To get a DG certification you must undego training. That will cost you about $600-800. Chekc your local fire dept on where to take a course.
So unlike a electric wheel chair where airlines may ask you to remove any "live" connections to the battery, the issue with transporting the Segway PT is quite different.
Hope this helps.

[Bob.Kerns]

I alwaqys mainteind the amount of cell phones with Li-Ion combined in an airplane is potentially more harmfull (if there were ever a thermal issue) than a pair of Segway batteries.

There are important differences, though.

Cell phone (and laptop) batteries are physically dispersed throughout the plane, so a thermal event is likely to only affect one, unless the whole plane is already on fire (from the wheelchair in the cargo hold).

On the other hand, a burning cell phone battery is sure to make at least one passenger extremely unhappy, immediately, and the rest, eventually. (Burns and smoke). But it's unlikely to result in an abnormal termination of flight.

I would fly with a Segway in the hold. But I'm not sure I would send millions of fliers into the air every year with Segways or their equivalents in the hold -you have to look at risk differently and more carefully when dealing with large scale activities. (I'm not saying I don't think Segways are safe enough; rather, I haven't evaluated them carefully enough and done enough testing. My inclination is that yes, they're safe enough, but I don't think the decision should be made without due care).

And what if the Segway's batteries have been improperly repacked? Airline personnel are unlikely to detect that fact.

[2Mille]

And what if the Segway's batteries have been improperly repacked? Airline personnel are unlikely to detect that fact.

Whomever signed that Haz-Mat certification will be answerable to the improper packaging...[B)]