FMCA Denied Segway Access to Rally in GA

[Suzined]

I wrote to the Mayor of Perry, Georgia, regarding access denial to a disabled Seger. In response I received anb e-mail from Mr. Shimp asking foir details. The following is my response.

Dear Mr. Shimp,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding denial of Segway access to the FMCA Rally Buildings in Perry, Georgia, on or about March 20, 2007. My involvement in this issue stems from my interest in securing a requirement that any and all sponsors of events at publicly owned facilities, including the Georgia National Fairgrounds & Agricenter, permit the use of Segways to the same degree as pedestrians in accordance with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). Why bother making a building handicapped accessible only to deny entry by handicapped individuals?

With this in mind, Scott Holloway of Atlanta, Georgia, shared the following with the Segway community.

On or about March 20, 2007, a few Segway owners were coming by the FMCA Rally to say hello and the security team decided they weren't allowed on them. One of the owners, Bill, pulled out his handicap placard and his copy of the ADA laws and the security were not impressed. Bill was fairly upset and questioned the guard and he said he was just doing what he was told. Bill asked to talk to the person that "told" him. Later the Chief of FMCE Security, Sonny” came over.

The conversation started out OK but quickly progressed to questioning if Bill was really handicapped and saying the ADA law didn't matter. I told him (Sonny) that we disagreed and thought we had a Federal Law on our side and that's when he said, "You know damn good and well the federal law doesn't apply inside buildings"!! What?! We knew then we weren't going to have an intelligent discussion with this guy. He said Bill could walk so I pointed out that some people that ride Segways can't walk. He stupidly asked "what does that have to do with anything?" I told him I was trying to help him understand the purpose of the law and he said he only wanted to talk about Bill's situation. I tried to swing the conversation back to the law that covers Bill's situation as well as ANY OTHER handicapped person but he wouldn't hear of it. Then he said, "What are you going to tell me next, that BLIND people ride them". I told him about two blind customers I have that ride them to work because they can't drive a car. He was IRATE at that point and said I was being an ***. I am fully capable of that but was fairly impressed with how subdued I had been to this point.

We were told to go meet Jerry Yates, the show manager or something, they said he was "waiting on us" to discuss it. We rode over there and he was not there and when they radioed him he told the lady to tell us Segways weren't allowed. He wouldn't even bother coming over to discuss it.

Finally we met with Max Durbin, the Safety Team head guy. He was much more relaxed but pointed out I didn't know anything about the law and the law doesn't say you can ride a two wheeled vehicle into a crowded building. I asked him what adjectives the law does use to describe vehicles that are protected and he said it doesn't describe any. So then I asked, then why not this vehicle. He finally stated that the law says you have to be "reasonable" and the Segway wasn't "reasonable". I pointed out that perhaps that was just his opinion and that many other people would find the Segway to be a reasonable option for certain handicaps. He just laughed. So he too couldn't differentiate between the things they were letting in and the Segway other than to say it was unreasonably dangerous.

Bill and I decided we would get nowhere with these geniuses so we gave up. It's no fun destroying someone in a debate when they have no idea they are being destroyed. Of course once inside the building we saw many 3 wheelers and 4 wheelers. One was a clown (literally by the way) with live bunnies on his vehicle. A safety officer pointed out you can't bring pets in, OH BUT FLAKY the clown is allowed to. I thought that was awesome that some of the rules are Ok to break. Then there was the guy on a 4 wheeler towing his wife in a trailer behind him. That was really safe for everyone around, that's the perfect vehicle for a crowded pedestrian area!!!

We got some names of the people supposedly on an FMCA national committee that had decided the ADA doesn't apply to the Segway. I'm no lawyer and it was no fun beating up these guys but both Sonny and Max said they would welcome a lawsuit. If anyone was to try and get more info to the decision makers I'd be glad to get their info. Feel free to email the FMCA and let them know your opinion if their Security Chief (Sonny) should go around telling people they aren't really handicapped and deciding for them what devices they can and can't use.
Mr. Shimp, I understand a supervisor’s need to support his employees but occasionally an employee is wrong. It is then very important to make a simple correction rather than cobbling together arguments which are clearly without support. Granted, the Segway is as fairly recent technological innovation which is not commonly encountered but I believe sightings will increase greatly in coming years. Recently a civil action was filed by the ALCU in New Mexico against a mall in Las Cruces. Legal action is clearly not in anyone’s best interest but sometimes people who stubbornly refuse to comply with the law will learn in no other way.

My interest in this matter stems from the next FMCA Rally in Deschutes County, Oregon, which I would like to attend. I do not, however, wish to travel two hundred and fifty miles from my home to Redmond, Oregon, only to learn I am not allowed access to the interior displays and exhibits because I am not able to walk. I do not choose to subject myself to the humiliation of a wheelchair. If you have ever been subjected to the condescending treatment imposed upon those confined to wheelchairs you would immediately understand the adamancy of an individual who has been effectively restored to the world by a Segway only to be told to revert to the cruel slavery imposed by a wheelchair. In 2001 U.S. Attorney General Richardson stated that there would be no list of ADA approved equipment because of the rapid technological advancements being made and his unwillingness to restrict the handicapped community to “government approved” means of overcoming very individualized handicaps.

As I re-read the above, I am struck by my own emotional response to this seemingly minor incident which occurred completely across the country from me. My only explanation stems from my feelings of liberation once I acquired my own Segway. Freedom is very important to me.

There are many personal experiences which I might mention; Christmas shopping in Lloyd’s Center Mall in Portland, Oregon, gliding along the trail to the top of McKinsey Head at Cape Disappointment three miles from home, reading the accounts of Federal Judge James Jarvis who uses his Segway to maintain his very active lifestyle in Knoxville. But rather than list anecdotes, may I suggest you contact a Segway dealer in Atlanta and ask for a guided tour of at least an hour? Such a tour would familiarize you with Segways. A lack of familiarity with the Segway has resulted in many cases of discrimination caused by fear of unfamiliar technology. We all have apprehension when faced with the unknown.

As stated above, I hope in future you will requirement any and all sponsors of events at the Georgia National Fairgrounds & Agricenter to permit the use of Segways to the same extend as pedestrians.

Yours truly,

Edward W. Leonard
P.O. Box 881
Ilwaco, Washington 98624
(360) 244-0326

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Shimp
To: suzined@reachone.com
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:35 AM
Subject: Segways

Dear Mr. Leonard,

In regards to the letter written to Mayor James Worrall. I am concerned that there has been some confusion. Could you please give more information regarding the banning of Segways. I am not familiar with this. We (The Georgia National Fairgrounds & Agricenter) did not ban there use during the FMCA rally. Please advise(who, what, when, and where) and I will attempt to sort the problem out. I observed several Segways upon the grounds and in no way did we attempt to stop there use. I look forward to your reply.

Sincerely,
Stephen M. Shimp
Chief of Security
Georgia National Fairgrounds & Agricenter
sshimp@gnfa.com
478-988-6556

[Tarkus]

Very well put. All of us who need the Segway thank you.

Be Big,
Alan

[dale@thecoys.net]

http://www.aclu-nm.org/News_Events/news_4_12_07.html

[drmarty]

So Far So Good. As it should be!

Now it seems to this lay person that removing this to Federal court is Better for Funk. What am I missing? The defendants did the moving and Mr Funk has the ACLU so it is not like he will be chased away because he can't afford to litigate in Federal court.

So it seems to me they are playing into Mr Funk/our hands.

Marty

[Suzined]

I'd guess the Mall wanted to move to Federal Court in order to avoid litigating this issue in every state where they own a mall. This way they can put their resources into one trial and one appeal process.

If the Mall "loses" and is ordered by the court to allow Segways, the Mall will be in a much stronger position if subsequently sued for allowing Segways--they can use the "the Court made me do it" defense. If they allow Segways without a court order, some attorney will sue them for allowing Segways (you should have known a Segway was inherently dangeous). It is in this sense that the Mall will win regardless of the outcome--the suit brings clarity to their legal obligations.

The Mall's insurance company will have their responsibilities defined by the Court and will adjust their premiums accordingly to cover the cost of the suit and any added or lessened risk.

As far as the Plaintiff is concerned, a federal win is far more persuasive than just a state win. The problem is, of course, that the move to Federal Court raises the stakes for those of us who use Segways. I think a loss will hurt us a lot more than it will hurt the Mall.

If the Mall's CEO were handicapped and needed a Segway, my guess is there would still be a ban until a court ordered the ban lifted. This suit is about shifting a potential liability from the mall to the individual glider.

Realistically is there a cost to the risk a Segway imposes? Sure, just ask Progressive Insurance Co. what premium they will charge you to assume your liability for you. It isn't so much about discrimination as it is about money--it's about who pays if something goes terribly wrong.

[Desert_Seg]

So Far So Good. As it should be!

Now it seems to this lay person that removing this to Federal court is Better for Funk. What am I missing? The defendants did the moving and Mr Funk has the ACLU so it is not like he will be chased away because he can't afford to litigate in Federal court.

So it seems to me they are playing into Mr Funk/our hands.

Marty

Marty,

This one is easy. By moving to Federal Court the case "becomes one". That is, rather than potentially having 50 cases in 50 different states, JLL now has only one case to fight and can, within reason, apply the Federal decision across all their state business units.

Furthermore, having a Federal decision is much better for JLL's insurance provider. With one decision they can apply an insurance premium across all their malls, rather than a state by state review (although this will still have to happen due to specific state requirements).

Of course, now comes the issue of liability. Suing in Federal court is less likely to make you rich than suing in state court. Conversely, being sued in Federal is better for you than being sued in state. Where do you think JLL would rather be sued (if this were to happen?).

Finally, while I believe this entire case bodes well for Mr. Funk and the use of a Segway as a mobility device, a loss would be a BIG blow for Segway gliders. While we are all cheering Mr. Funk on, we have to understand that there is always the possibility of a loss. Why? Because if INC gets called to testify they will testify that the Segway is NOT an approved medical device and is not intended to be so. Sure, we all know that there are countless individuals whose lives have improved because of the Segway but....there is still grave risk associated with those words and Jerry, Alan, and team might be needed to testify on behalf of Mr. Funk.

Steven

[Tarkus]

and sometimes the Bear eats you.
You never know until you are face to face with the foe.

I'm sure the ACLU will use all available resources on persons with disabilities and Segways.


Be Big,
Alan

[Nelda]

I was wondering if anyone here from Segchat has spoken with Mr. Funk.

Nelda

[hellphish]

Why was the mall suit link posted in the FMCA thread?

Even if Segway INC testifies that it is not designed as a medical device, isn't that moot since a disabled person is allowed to use any conveyance that enhances their mobility?

[dale@thecoys.net]

Why was the mall suit link posted in the FMCA thread?


I posted it in this thread because jgrohol, Uber Administrator and Wise Segway Elder, immediately closes threads when he/she posts them in the "In The News" Forum. It appears to be a "rule" that postings in that forum are closed immediately - otherwise, I would have posted this to the appropriate thread in that Forum.

I picked this thread because the mall suit had already been mentioned in this thread before. First posting in this thread, by Suzined.

[Off Topic - where should I have posted it?]

[hellphish]

[Off Topic - where should I have posted it?]

If anyone finds something in "In the News" that they wish to open a discussion on, please contact me through PM. I'll happily copy the thread to the main forum, so that you can continue the conversation.
Pam

Again, it is too bad the moderation doesn't want to put all the rules and expectations into a sticky, but appearently that is too much to ask.

[polo_pro]

I'd say the best thing would have been to create a new thread in the General forum that mirrored yours in the News forum. The News forum acts as a library with placeholders to lots of old topics that have appeared in the press. That's why the threads are closed (rather than let arguing over topics eclipse the archival role of that forum).

[nora k]

Again, it is too bad the moderation doesn't want to put all the rules and expectations into a sticky, but appearently that is too much to ask.

perhaps you should address it directly with the mods instead of with the entire forum.

[Suzined]

I e-mailed the following comments to the Security Chief for the Georgia National Fairgrounds who hosted the FMCA Rally this spring. After I e-mailed this, I sent him a letter with some additional comments--one might say redundant comments but then I like me so I won't--and copies of the news article by Leonard Timm on Judge Jarvis, the 11/15/2004 St. Louis Post-Dispatch article "IT's so cool, the owners' club is still small" by Jeff Daniel, and the March 29, 2007 ACLU News Release, "Las Cruces Resident with Disability Sues Mall for Banning Segways". I'll post the letter separately, this post is already too long.

Mr. Shimp,

I apologize for my delayed response to your e-mail but a series of physical difficulties has been creating havoc with my social calendar.

First, the ADA is not an organization, rather, it is the Americans with Disabilities Act, a federal law. I assume you are referring to the ADA Section of the U.S. Attorney General's Office. I am not surprised these lawyers have not promulgated a policy regarding Segways since the number of Segways in use is small, the ADA is clear, and the Attorney General must prioritize their enforcement activities to meet their budgetary constraints.

Georgia law provides for use of public facilities by persons with disabilities. I believe the Georgia code is 30-4-1, Right to Equal Public Accommodation. I'll leave that thread to your attorneys.

There is a discrimination case before the Federal Courts in New Mexico where the defendants in that action have already agreed to a temporary injunction where the handicapped patron may use his Segway in the defendant's mall until the case is resolved. It appears the case will be resolved by an agreed order where Segways may be used in malls by handicapped individuals. An agreed order will not provide a paper trail with appellate review which can be used as legal precedent. Never-the-less, this case will become very persuasive in future litigation. Note that the plaintiff in that case is being represented by the ACLU.

Safety is always a concern for any person, business, and organization serving the public. Yet "safety" cannot be used as cover for being unwilling to consider change in our society. There are three studies, two Canadian and one from the U.S. Department of Transportation, which conclude Segways are either safer or much safer than bicycles. I have not seen a study comparing Segways to wheelchairs though anecdotal evidence suggest wheelchairs cause more accidents because of their low profile, lack of agility, and poor response time.

I view the issue of potential speed as a red herring. We are discussing Segway use by the handicapped community, not the local track team. Nike Air Max shoes are also "potentially" unsafe if not operated correctly in a crowd. We are discussing handicapped individuals. I think it entirely reasonable to keep Segways out of many areas if their number becomes unmanageable or safety is clearly being compromised. But what is not acceptable is banning handicapped use of Segways while permitting handicapped use of wheelchairs. I would also point out there are medical reasons why some cannot tolerate sitting. A security guard's directive to such a handicapped individual to leave his Segway and sit in a wheel chair is practicing medicine without a license and will be viewed under strict liability. In such a case, a wheelchair is not an acceptable substitute for a Segway.

Edward W. Leonard
360-244-0326


----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Shimp
To: Ed Leonard
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Segways


Mr. Leonard,

This is the best I can come up with. This link is a Q&A session with the ADA and you will find one question is directly related to your issue. The ADA has not yet released an opinion on the use of Segways at public gatherings and as a use of mobility for the disabled(If there is something newer please forward to me). I have to say I agree with the point that a Segway is capable of reaching much higher speeds than the "conventional" methods, thus can become unsafe if not operated correctly amongst a crowd. I have also called the Dept. of Justice and they do not have an opinion as to enforcement of not allowing Segways on to property either public or private. It seems this technology has a lot of people up in the air at the moment. Please forward any other opinions you find stated by the ADA or any other legal organizations. I would like to make an informed decision concerning future events at our facility, although I was not involved in this one. I am interested in any information as we are definitely sensitive to the needs of our visitors. I look forward to your response.

Sincerely,


Stephen M. Shimp
Chief of Security
Georgia National Fairgrounds & Agricenter
sshimp@gnfa.com
478-988-6556

[Suzined]

Since my initial letter was to the Mayor of Perry, Georgia, I sent Mayor Worrall a copy of this as well. I'm having a hip replaced in the morning so I won't be able to follow up on the FMCA Rally in Deschutes County, Oregon, till about mid-July. There is an opportunity for you to get your oars into the water.

Tall Ships are at the Port of Ilwaco this weekend--Yo Ho Ho!


May 28, 2007

Stephen M. Shimp, Chief of Security
Georgia National Fairgrounds & Agricenter
P.O. Box 1367
Perry, Georgia 31069-1367

Dear Mr. Shimp,

Thank you for your April 2nd e-mail. The most common objection to Segways seems to be that they are potentially unsafe. I would add the following comments to my e-mail earlier this morning and include some material which you might find of interest.

Allegations of some inherent or potential danger with Segways never seem to be backed up with statistics or studies. I have attempted to access accident records and police reports without any success. The best I can find in an advanced Google search is “Insufficient data”. With over 24,000 Segway units on the street and five years of use, where are the statistics demonstrating these machines are unsafe or dangerous? Quite simply, the Segways have been and are being used by the handicapped community in a safe and responsible manner.

One cannot prove a negative but certainly proof of a safety hazard is quite easy. Just compile Segway accident and incident reports. The numbers, if Segways are truly a danger, should be readily available.

All this then brings us to what protections are provided by Georgia law to disabled members of the community. If a person is disabled and uses a Segway, is it lawful to discriminate against them by denying them access to a public facility because they use an assistive device which best suits their needs instead of an assistive device which the Fairgrounds feels is more appropriate? I’m sure your security personnel are not competent to prescribe appropriate equipment for the physically impaired.

I note the City of Perry lists tourism as one of its major economic engines—much like the City of Ilwaco. As a former mayor in Ilwaco, I was adamant in attracting as many tourists as possible, witness the Lewis & Clark Bicentennial last year. In conjunction with the City of Long Beach, we spent five years in attracting as wide a pattern of visitation as possible. The last thing we would tolerate would be illegal discrimination against, of all people, the handicapped.

Worse than legal action, you do not need to establish a reputation of discrimination against the handicapped at your facility. Imagine if a recipient, under the Segs4Vets program, of a Segway were denied access to your fairgrounds. The phrase “Political death” springs to mind. I’m sure any event/business license issued by you requires compliance with the ADA. This appears to be an opportunity to remind all your employees that use of electric personal assistive mobility devices by the handicapped is legal. In 1991 U.S. Attorney General Richard Thornburgh, in publishing the first regulations in implementing the ADA said, "There would be no exhaustive list of devices and services protected under the ADA because any attempt to do so would omit the new devices that would become available with emerging technology". Nothing since has changed which would require governmental approval of Segways as an assistive device. This pretty much leaves each disabled individual with their own choice of device which works best for them. Somehow, this strikes me as an eminently reasonable approach.

As a 100% disabled POW from Vietnam, Segways have opened up a much larger universe to me. Rather than discriminate against Segways, our merchants seize upon the opportunity to include Segways among those who wish to visit our peninsula. Indeed, on June 16th the Long Beach Merchants’ Association is hosting its 30th Annual Beach-to-Chowder Run & Glide which includes Segways. See www.funbeach.com.

Discrimination against the handicapped is a very, very serious matter especially in an area where tourism is a vital part of the economy. Indeed, your fairgrounds advertise its design “reflects the discerning needs of everyone...is handicapped accessible.” This, if the prohibition against handicapped use of Segways is maintained, is blatantly false.

I believe the simple, logical, and proper solution to the question of Segways usage by members of the handicapped community is to simply permit the use of Segways absent the most compelling of circumstances under the heightened scrutiny standard used by the courts.

Yours truly,

/s

Cc: Mayor J. E. Worrall
City of Perry

[X-man]

Suzined,
Dates for the rally are Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, Aug. 13, 14, 15, and 16, 2007. If I'm anywhere in the area I will be attending but I make no plans.

I'm curious. Did you contact anyone at the FMCA conerning this issue? I had zero problems at Pomona last year. It seems to me that this is a localized issue with the fairground.

FMCA#16759

[jrvcd]

pomona fairgrounds allows segways as long as you use the black key that is there stance on it.