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Phil
06-25-2006, 11:24 PM
I just recently recieved my P series batteries from Segway and it all seemed ok.
I have left the P plugged in for a few days when my son wanted to take it for a spin around the living room. He started it on the Black key and mentioned to me that he had a Red Face for a moment.
When I get over to see the display, it shows only 1 segment of battery left.
I plug it back in and it went into the test pulse at first and then deep charge cycle and it has remained there for about 15 plus hours.
I guess I will call Monday morning to see what needs to be done about it.
Any ideas?
Phil




bystander
06-26-2006, 12:07 AM
Page 23 of the reference manual says NiMH batteries prefer to be charged at less than 77 degrees F. Are you in part of the country where the indoor temperature is at or above this point? If so, a small cooling fan may be useful. Also see page 26 of the reference manual for charging details.

Also, when putting new NiMH batteries on an old machine, things may work better if broken in with the five 40% discharges.

Although the reference manual recommends leaving the HT plugged in when not in use, a few posters have reported problems when the HT is idle (charging only, not being ridden) for several weeks or months.

Because the people not having problems don't post about it, we only hear from the unfortunate few who are having problems. So, we as a group don't know for sure if it's a 2% chance or a 80% chance of having a battery problem when NiMH are left charging for several months.

I use my HT many times a week, and usually keep it plugged in between uses. I haven't experienced long-term storage battery degradation myself, probably because I use the HT so often.

My inclination is that if the charger / pack temperature is kept cool but not cold, NiMH can take unlimited trickle charge. If the charger / internal pack temperature is warm to hot and the power occasionally gets interrupted (causing a period of full charge mode each time), NiMH packs could become damaged after a few months.

Phil
06-26-2006, 08:01 AM
Thanks for the info,
I have been charging it inside the house where the temp is 73-74 .
I unplugged the unit after the first post and started it up and it went into Red instantly.
Will look further into the problem.
Thanks,
Phil

Phil
06-26-2006, 06:15 PM
Called Segway and was told to swithc batteries around and also dis-reconnect Control Shaft.
Recharged and unit went into test mode, then deep cycle.
When on flast blink after deep cycle, I took it off and tried to restart and it showed one segment of battery, almost completely discharged.
Then unit went into red display.
So now I have to go to the next step which is, I assume, to make sure the charger is charging ok.
Ugghhh!

luckie
06-26-2006, 08:21 PM
Hi, Phil,

I assume you purchased a new set of NiMH batteries for a Segway HT p133 that you've used for years? I'm not sure of this of course, but it appears you've been a member on SegwayChat since late 2002 and thus maybe owned this Segway for awhile (rather than just bought a used p Series from a stranger on eBay etc).

If this is the case it also seems likely you would have plenty of experience with how you must spend a significant amount of time "breaking in" a new set of NiMH batteries as well as know how/if your HT charged your old set of batteries easily. If all this worked great with the old set of batteries and everything fails with the new set, it does seem the new NiMH cells are suspect.

I'm glad to hear you are talking directly to Segway Inc and providing them with many more details than you are providing here, because they are the best authority on the topic. I also believe if there is a problem with the old set, they will send you a new one.

Please do let us know how this goes.

Doug

pam
06-26-2006, 09:20 PM
Actually, I can give some additional information, because I know some of his story, and I don't think he'll mind. This p133 is a new purchase, which he got used for a great deal, but the batteries were shot. (Had been in storage but not plugged in.) I met him while he was here on vacation and allowed him to test out the machine with my p133 batteries, which were ok, and his machine ran fine. He might not be aware of the necessary break in period with NiMHs - if it's been a while since he did a break in (can't remember if he has a larger unit).

So, break in rules (as I recall from almost 4 years ago - someone correct me if I'm wrong)
Charge for 12 hours, run until at 2 bars.
Charge for another 12 hours, run until 2 bars.

Do this several times (4 or 5, as I recall).

At that point, batteries should be broken in. And you should be able to accomplish this before batteries go out of warranty.

Pam

Phil
06-27-2006, 05:59 AM
Doug,
I have an E and an I but it has been a awhile since getting a new one and did remember something about breaking in.
I knew it should be ran down several times, but forgot how many times.

Seems to be a battery problem as I can imagine that there would be no way that I could have caused it to not be able to take a charge at all. at least in this short amount of time.
Only had the new batts about a week now.
I did find out that there was a suspect battery issue with the previous owners. It was sent in to SEgway and determined that the batteries were notbad, these are the previous batteries from the original owners.
Maybe the charging base is bad from way back when, and that has been the problem all along.
It's amazing how it looks like it is taking a charge just fine, Test cycle, deep cycle, top off,
but when booting up, it shows one bar while in power assist mode and then red and off.
Thanks again to Pam for coming over last month and letting me try her P batts to verify.
Will keep any new info posted here.
Phil

Phil
06-29-2006, 12:42 AM
Just the latest.

I think that I narrowed it down to the Charging base. Although it would show from the LED in the base that it was testing, deep cycle, and top off charge it was actually never actually charging the batteries itself.
Or that is the only thing that I can imagine as the batteries never came back up at all.
I did take another charging base from an I series and placed the new batteries that I purchased from Segway a few weeks back.
I let it go into Deep cycle and then unplugged and started the P. The segments showed that it had now 3/4 of a charge. I know that this was a top off charge, but still progressing more then the other charging base.

Segway had notified that the original owners had sent in the batteries awhile back and they found nothing wrong with the batteries.
So I asked them if the charging base was in warranty since this more than likely was the problem that the original owners had the batts returned for problems.
Even though it may have been under warranty at the time, it was not checked out, just the batteries were sent in.
But was advised that it would not be under warranty at this point.
So, looking for in expensive skyway base.
Thanks for all the comments on this issue.
Phil

luckie
06-29-2006, 12:44 PM
Hi, Phil,

Well if the p133 had a broken charger and the previous owners never got the charger fixed, yep that could certainly explain it. It's a shame they didn't just get it fixed while it was under warranty.

So did Segway Inc tell you how much a fix (or just new charging base) will likely cost these days?

Doug

polo_pro
06-29-2006, 01:33 PM
I thought I read somewhere that the guts of an offboard charger had the same electronics as the onboard charger. (And who knows if the p133 and i-Series segways have the same charging electronics.) macgeek flipped his charging LED, and since he owns at least one offboard charger, I'm sure he could confirm this.

If the charging circuitry is relatively self contained in both chargers (preferably with connectors instead of a few soldered wires), someone could send you an offboard charger to borrow for a few weeks. Offboard chargers are relatively cheap with several going for ~$200 on Ebay in the last couple months. While this might seem like alot of money, this would be the cheapest repair you'll ever make to a Segway (except for maybe replacing fenders or tires).

One other thing is offboard chargers are not an item that has to be in constant use (unlike Li-Ion batteries which are the life blood of a tour company). So you might find a dealer who can afford to not have it around for a couple weeks. Offering to "rent" the offboard charger for a couple of weeks might be the trick, though I'll be the first person to state there are ethical concerns about tearing apart rented equipment and whether you can truly return the equipment to its original state. (Notice that I haven't offered to loan you my offboard chargers...8^) 8^) 8^) )

Assuming the onboard and offboard chargers share 99% the same parts and are fully connectorized, I'm surprised that Segway INC hasn't an established procedure for dealers to do further diagnostics like this. Most dealers that offer tours/rentals have offboard chargers that could be used towards these ends. I'm sure there are some members of Segway Chat (like macgeek or the folks over at Segway of Oakland/Segway Junkyard) who'll respond to this thread and let us know about the feasibility of this idea. And if that doesn't happen, then maybe I have my first question for the Segway INC folks at the Long Beach Segfest in Oct 2006!

bystander
06-29-2006, 03:04 PM
I thought I read somewhere that the guts of an offboard charger had the same electronics as the onboard charger. (And who knows if the p133 and i-Series segways have the same charging electronics.) macgeek flipped his charging LED, and since he owns at least one offboard charger, I'm sure he could confirm this.

If the charging circuitry is relatively self contained in both chargers (preferably with connectors instead of a few soldered wires), someone could send you an offboard charger to borrow for a few weeks. Offboard chargers are relatively cheap with several going for ~$200 on Ebay in the last couple months. While this might seem like alot of money, this would be the cheapest repair you'll ever make to a Segway (except for maybe replacing fenders or tires).

One other thing is offboard chargers are not an item that has to be in constant use (unlike Li-Ion batteries which are the life blood of a tour company). So you might find a dealer who can afford to not have it around for a couple weeks. Offering to "rent" the offboard charger for a couple of weeks might be the trick, though I'll be the first person to state there are ethical concerns about tearing apart rented equipment and whether you can truly return the equipment to its original state. (Notice that I haven't offered to loan you my offboard chargers...8^) 8^) 8^) )

Assuming the onboard and offboard chargers share 99% the same parts and are fully connectorized, I'm surprised that Segway INC hasn't an established procedure for dealers to do further diagnostics like this. Most dealers that offer tours/rentals have offboard chargers that could be used towards these ends. I'm sure there are some members of Segway Chat (like macgeek or the folks over at Segway of Oakland/Segway Junkyard) who'll respond to this thread and let us know about the feasibility of this idea. And if that doesn't happen, then maybe I have my first question for the Segway INC folks at the Long Beach Segfest in Oct 2006!I've opened my CSB to flip the LED position, so I am a little familiar to the internal layout. I've never had the chance to open an off-board charger and have only seen one from the outside.

I understand that the circuits contained in both are similar, but is the mechanical layout similar enough that the contents of the off-board charger would physically fit inside the CSB?

Here's my (probably lame) suggestion. Perhaps a new (or working used) CSB can be purchased, splitting the cost with macgeek. The cable that got damaged (in the accident (http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=12524)) goes to macgeek and the CSB electronics go to Phil.

The logistics are a little tricky to work out, because I'm not exactly sure which cables got damaged, the ones going up to the handlebar or the ones going to the powerbase. If it's the ones to a handlebar, the replacement CSB must have the compatible cable type. If the damaged cables are the ones to the powerbase, new cables probably don't come with a new CSB.

macgeek
06-29-2006, 05:50 PM
actually I have a few powerbases in assorted shapes.
the one with the wacked out cable will charge the batteries.
but wont work on a seg.. so i think thats a no go.

a New CS base is $500

I havent bought it.... YET


Jonathan

bystander
06-29-2006, 06:03 PM
actually I have a few powerbases in assorted shapes.
the one with the wacked out cable will charge the batteries.
but wont work on a sec.. so i think thats a no go.

a New CS base is $500

I havent bought it.... YET


JonathanBut if Phil removed his cable from his CSB and put it on your damaged CSB, would it work in his p-series?

But I guess you're saying the your recently damaged CSB is beyond repair.

Just thought I'd bring up the possibility, in case it was practical.

macgeek
06-29-2006, 06:07 PM
but its a 'task' to swap out the cables. not for the faint of heart

Jonathan

bystander
06-29-2006, 07:43 PM
but its a 'task' to swap out the cables. not for the faint of heart

JonathanI agree on that. I removed the CSB electronics from the CSB when I did the LED flip. It was no fun getting that grommet out of the CSB casting without damaging anything too badly. (I have the old style with the rubber grommet, not the newer type with the plastic fitting)

I wouldn't do that again without good reason.

But I might be tempted to try it in order to save half the cost a new CSB assembly. Of course if you could get a used one that works for $250, no need to muck around with swapping the cables.

On the other hand, since were talking about something that can potentially throw your face down on the pavement at 10 - 12.5 mph, I guess it's better to repair with new parts and not make-do with scraps.